[00:00:01] No, but we didn't have phone connection and we could not. Night was coming, we could not abandon these people. Also you want to know something that has happened after we put these people in the car and we took them to the closet community to a clinic where they could take care of them.

[00:00:18] The moment we put them on the car and we started again with the car in this dirty road, not even 10 meters, so literally starting the car, two mountain lions crossed our road. So we've been talking a lot about the fact that these two mountain lions were basically waiting for the night to attack them because they were so close to these two lost migrants.

[00:00:43] The night was coming, it was 7, 6.30 at night, it was getting dark. So yes, I mean there's nothing different we could do. These people would not survive. Also because at night it's quite cold in the desert. We all imagine this Sonoran Desert as a tremendously hot place, but it can get to zero at night, in March, in winter or in early spring. It's very cold.

[00:01:10] Greetings and welcome back to the Camera Coffee Show, the podcast where we blew up inspiration for your photography journey. I'm your host Tom Jacob and behind the podcast are Richard Clarke and Tatiana Malovana pouring this all into another great episode. Today we're diving deep into the world of photojournalism with an incredible guest from Italy, Francesco Anselmi. If you ever wondered what it takes to document the raw realities of our world, this episode is for you.

[00:01:38] Francesco is an award-winning photojournalist whose work has been recognized by the Laika Oscar Barnack Award and he is the winner of the Visador, some of the most prestigious prizes in documentary and photojournalism. We'll talk about some of his work and touch upon his long-term project Borderlands, which takes us to the US-Mexico border and across Europe uncovering the human stories behind migration, identity and the shifting political landscapes of our time.

[00:02:05] But photojournalism is changing and fast. In this episode we talk about what it means to be a photojournalist today, how the industry has evolved and the hard truth about making a career in storytelling. Francesco shares his journey from studying at the International Center of Photography in New York, to covering the Greek economic crisis, to embedding himself in border communities worldwide.

[00:02:28] We also get into the ethics of photojournalism, the dangers of working in the field and the struggles young photographers face breaking into an industry that's always shifting beneath their feet nowadays. So grab a coffee, get comfortable and let's get into this episode with Francesco Anselmi. Greetings, Francesco, and welcome tonight on our podcast. Hi Tom, thanks for having me. It will be a great talk. I'm looking forward to talk a bit about photojournalism with you.

[00:02:58] What you've been doing over the past weeks? Something fun or you teach your daughter how to ride a bicycle? Oh, that's fun also. It's totally fun. Yes, we've also been doing... Well, now it's more winter season, so we're... I will try to put her on a snowboard very soon.

[00:03:18] But yes, there's not enough snow at the moment. We just got the first little... It's white, but it's very thin. So we're not ready yet. No, the past week I've been doing some presentations about Borderlands, the book. Mm-hmm.

[00:03:37] I did the first presentation in Milan, and then I... I traveled to Poland for another chapter of my project about border communities in the European Union. And yes, we are taking a week of relaxing the mountains. Sounds good. And you're all ready for a nice podcast talk. Francesco, walk me a bit back when you were younger.

[00:04:03] When came photography in your life or when did you decide to pursue this path of art? I don't know if defining it a path of art, because it's been very... It's been quite tumultuous as a path. I mean, I came to photography a bit randomly somehow. Meaning during university years, I had a few friends that were passionate about photography and they transmitted me this passion.

[00:04:30] And I started having the camera around. I was studying the politics science at the time. And I... I was tired. I was tired about those studies. So I was very interested in... I wanted to become a journalist. I wanted to become a writer. I've always been good at writing, but at one point it wasn't fitting anymore in that period of my life.

[00:05:00] After-ologistmesiias. I wondered how many people went into acting coaching life was a poem or her books, their bathroom die? And in the back of Однако... And then everything developed a bit from there, meaning at the beginning I had no idea what I wanted to do.

[00:05:26] I mean, I had this idea about becoming a photojournalist, but was something really connected to some old reference that I had. And I didn't even know that word didn't exist anymore, you know, or was about to end somehow. So I had this really enchanted idea of photographing things and situations and topics with the idea to change them.

[00:05:55] And so I started working in Milan after this first school I did. I started working as a press photographer in Milan. And I started growing in that aspect, in the photojournalist aspect. And then the next step after that was trying to go to New York. And so I tried to apply to ICP in New York City. I got accepted. I went there. But still, I was always with this idea of becoming a photojournalist, really. And then this changed during the years.

[00:06:24] And I've been a photojournalist and sometimes I still am. But yeah. Do you think your time in New York in the International Center of Photography, ICP, it shaped your vision as a photojournalist there in another way? Well, totally. It put me even more on that, let's say, tradition of photojournalism, which is an American tradition.

[00:06:52] And yes, but that was really useful at one point to understand what I didn't want to do. I mean, so often you need to go through things to understand they're not working for you. And yes, so that's how it went. The ICP, it's a very photo... I think now they're changing a bit. But the way, the approach is a very photojournalistic approach. And it taught me a lot.

[00:07:20] It taught me a lot because I still work with the journalistic approach in my photography. That kind of image shaping didn't work anymore for me. And so I evolved in the time. And very important for you is also doing research before you start a project. Research is everything, yes. I mean, we will get to it. But talking about Borderlands and how it...

[00:07:47] My approach is still very, very journalistically based, let's say, in terms of research, in terms of the person and the places that I want to go to, the people that I want to meet. And absolutely. And then you went on to cover the crisis in Greece, Francesco. This was by an idea of a press agency you worked for? Or this was an idea from yourself?

[00:08:16] Well, I did my studies in New York City. I stayed in New York City for a while, for a couple of years after my studies. And then I moved back to Europe. And I joined Contrasto, which is still my agency now. And I was very young at the time. And when you join a reportage, documentary agency, you must really work on your identity in terms of photography, sure.

[00:08:42] But also in terms of what are the areas geographically or thematically that you want to be covering and you kind of want to specialize yourself about. So as I was saying, I was very young. I was 27, coming back from the United States. So together with the agency, yes, we... At the time, the agency didn't have nobody in Greece. And there was a lot of requests from Greece. And for me, it was good to move there.

[00:09:10] So I moved to Athens for a few years. And that's been the beginning of everything, yes. Of facing an internationally relevant topic and having to find a way to rate it. And how difficult is this to move, Francesco, not only for your work, but go to live in another country for four years and then also work at the same time? Yes, yes. It was been tough.

[00:09:40] But I mean, I was so young. This was very exciting for me. It's been an amazing time, the time I spent in Greece. And yeah, no, that's not been a problem. I mean, we want to do this because we love to travel. We love to be around. So that's never been a problem. In Greece, it's very similar to Italy also. It's very close. So it's not been a challenge in that terms. You know, the challenge is always about the work you produce, what you want to do.

[00:10:09] And still at the time, I was really into trying to get to certain situations that I thought were relevant for my work. And it was really a lot about action. It was really a lot about what was happening on the ground. And I really wanted the moments, the moments where everything became visible. Clashes in the street. Was it police? Was it mines? Crisis at coal mines?

[00:10:38] My dream was to understand, to prove yourself, to push yourself into situations and see how you work there, if it's fitting for you. If you want to do that, not just if it's fitting, if that's what you want to do. And I mean, photography, it's a personal path. It really has nothing to do with what people want from you. And so sometimes it can be more successful, sometimes less.

[00:11:07] It's all about yourself. You're doing the stuff you feel right for you. And this is what's driving. And I believe it should be driving always photographers. Let's talk a bit about Borderlands and your project. And I looked it up, Francesco. And yes, it is because I was reading Burn Magazine online and they did an interview with you. That's why I stumbled on your work.

[00:11:32] What motivated you to visit the United States side of the border and not the Mexican side for this project? Tell me about how this all started. Well, as I was telling you, I studied in the United States, then I moved to Europe. But I always wanted to produce work in the United States, which is something I didn't do much when I was studying there because I was a lot in New York City. And I didn't have so many chance to travel around. And so I was missing it.

[00:12:01] And in Greece, I got really fascinated by borders and by border-related issues. So I thought about approaching the U.S.-Mexico border. That is a, it was really a lot in the medias at the time. They were talking a lot about Mexico. Mexico, it's been, it's been, I mean, it's a border that has been narrated a lot. And a few years, a few years before I started my project, one, one of the projects that I

[00:12:28] appreciated the most was about the, was by Jerome Sessini, a Magnum photographer. And it was about the Mexican side of the border. That book is, it's called The Wrong Side. This is just an example. And it's a book I love. But, but it made me realize how the entire narration is, it's, it's based on the, on the

[00:12:55] exaltation of the emergency of the dramas of a side that is wrong, the side that is right. So somehow I also really wanted to see if, if that's really the right side. And, and if there is really this big difference between the Mexican side and the U.S. side. And of course there is, but it's not a difference in terms of security.

[00:13:19] As I was telling you, like the U.S. side of the border is 95% Latino in the inhabitants. So, so there's, there's not a cultural difference. The cultures are very mixed. And so I really wanted to, to try to approach the entire things differently and not to make that, that, that's not a mistake, but that every photographer's do trying, going to Mexico,

[00:13:46] trying to find exotic, trying to find the criminal aspects, trying to find the migrants in, in the most difficult situations. I was kind of, kind of sure I could, I could find all this on the U.S. side. And what, what was interesting for me is finding this in contact with the American society. And so, yes, I decided to do this first road trip from Brownsville, Texas to San Diego, California.

[00:14:13] It was an assignment for L'Espresso magazine in Italian, the main social politics magazine in Italy. And I did the, yes, I did the entire border in a month and a half. And then a series of other trips followed to the border in the next years where I focused more on certain areas that I was very interested in exploring more. So this is how it started. And then, of course, I, I, this was a fortunate choice for me, not, not in terms of fortune that I had at the job, the work had.

[00:14:43] It was really for, for my personal growth because during this work, I really, it became more and more interesting for me. And I, and I, as I was working, I understanding, I understood more and more about border phenomena, border related issues. So you really, yes, at the beginning there was this idea to make a road trip and, and then so many things were coming up that deserved more attention or that I was interested in and

[00:15:11] to, to get to it, I needed more time. And so, yes, I started going back to the border. Hmm. Francisco, as you are a photographer that, that wants or needs first to have a good research, you also already contacted or tried to contact people around this border to possibly interview and to make pictures. How you did that? How you built a trust up with them before being there? Well, I always started with my research.

[00:15:40] The things that I love is really to explore the areas where I'm going to work. And I do that a lot with Google maps and I am really meter for meter check how the landscape appears, how it looks, because you can already understand a lot from there and understand if those places are interesting for you. And already from the businesses you see, the, the, the, the, the, the, the kind of houses you see, you understand, you might, you might understand who lives there. Maybe some, something is interesting.

[00:16:10] So I always like really geographically explore a lot, the places where I'm going. And then, and then, yes, of course I contact people before because these are enormous spaces. Moving in those spaces is not easy in terms of meeting people randomly. You don't, you don't meet people sometimes for two days or like, I mean, outside communities or

[00:16:34] so to, to get to meet certain people that you're interested in because they live in a particular place or they have a particular role in this borderlands scenario. It's really, yes, it's really important to, first of all, it's important because you want to have a structure for your story and understand who you are including and not. And, and second, it's important because you, you, you must have their availability to, to meet you. And some people don't want to meet.

[00:17:02] So a long conversation starts where, where you try to convince them or try to explain what you're doing, why it's important for you to photograph them and, and finally get to them. And this, and this then is combined with, with a lot of random things and unexpected that happens. And that's what, what I, what I find interesting in, in being around in the borderlands.

[00:17:29] That's combining this, this structure from my view as an outsider, because you're always an outsider in the borderland and, and the random things that happens. But how you get there, Francesco? Because you're, you're not from there. You don't know anybody there. But how you get to the people you want to talk to? You make research online.

[00:17:51] I mean, Facebook, the social medias are, are an incredible resource in terms of getting to people. Now it's more different. It's more difficult because, I mean, the social media got, got so abused. So some people doesn't trust you when you get to them through social medias. But I mean, already a few years ago was different. I mean, the, the Facebook era was different.

[00:18:19] There was a lot of like contacts and from people with people that you don't know. And they would answer you. And there was much more trust in the, in the social media as a, as a, as a medium. So yes, through social media a lot. And yeah, then it depends. I mean, from situation to situation. I also put some, some announcements in, on, on platforms like Craigslist in the US to, to, to look for certain kind of people in certain areas.

[00:18:49] Yeah. And then the, the, the, the people speaks. So, you know, when you meet one, you start, you know, you explain what you're doing and they, they send you to someone else. And then this person sends you to someone else. It works like they say, and it's all about being trust and being respectful with people. I think it's all about building trust because of course, you also talk here about, you make pictures with gang members. You make pictures with coyotes.

[00:19:18] I think it goes from one person to another person that building trust and, and finally getting to these persons. The, the, the gangs, I, I found them on Craigslist. Yeah. This was, this was the only thing that I really found it on Craigslist because I was going through El Paso. I wanted to meet gangs in El Paso. So I went on Craigslist.

[00:19:41] I went in the section of El Paso where people go for meetings, meaning like for erotic meetings. So there is a lot of men going to this section of Craigslist. And so I abused that section. They put an announcement saying that I was in El Paso from the 2nd of May until the 7th of May. And during these five days, I was interested in meeting active members of the MS-13, possibly

[00:20:10] Mexicans members, explaining why I was interested in meeting them and photographing them. And I got tens, tens of answers and emails. Some were fake, probably somewhere from people that wanted to rob me. And then slowly, slowly, you know, some were real and we, we, we kept this, this conversation open for like a month because this, I did it a month before getting there.

[00:20:37] And, and then finally, yes, I got to two, two different groups. And when we were supposed to meet, one of the two groups canceled the meeting because they were, they were very scared. No, the other went, the other went through. So I met with this group of MS-13 members and we finalized the portrait that they wanted to do. There ever has been a moment that you felt like, not afraid for your life, but you were in an

[00:21:06] awkward position while you were there? A lot of, a lot of, but this happens all the time in life, not just when I'm working, like, you know, but yes, but yes, I, I felt when we met with the MS-13 team, there's just been some problem while we were there. And part of the group also started thinking, saying that my assistant was a cop. So there was some tension as we were there and they started fighting between each other.

[00:21:33] And so we were really hoping that the, the side that didn't think my assistant was a cop would win this, this internal challenge in the house because we were locked in with them. And so it, it was, it was tense, but then it, it went well. It's always good to have someone, you know, that you really trust in the situation. And there was one guy that I've been writing with for the past month and we really built some trust.

[00:22:03] And this guy is the guy that basically defended us. Yeah. I didn't, nothing, nothing bad could happen. I mean, if you have, if you have some trust, I mean, there's been a discussion, but, but yes, yes. If you go into a situation without organizing them and without clear things, I mean, bad things can happen, of course. And that's why it's something you, you move well ahead and you try to organize well ahead because you want to really try to understand who you have in front and then you want them to understand you're not a menace.

[00:22:35] So this picture you have, I think it's called, he's called Santos from the Mara 13 gang. It's a very powerful picture with his, with his tattoos. How you go on making this picture? I mean, is he without a shirt anyway, or you were talking with him a long time before or spontaneous? Santos is an active Mexican member, a soldier of the MS-13. He's been, he came out of prison before that picture, it's like three weeks before we took that picture.

[00:23:05] So it was a bit the star inside the group because, you know, when you go inside the, inside prison, you, you, you grow your ranks. So when you go out, you're, you're more important than before. And he was just starting to, to do some work in a restaurant also in the afternoon, working as a waiter. Cause I mean, gang members, they also have a regular life or, I mean, sometimes they also

[00:23:31] get, especially when you get out of prison, you know, you, you try to, to, to go straight somehow. And, and so yes, no, he came in, he came in with this white shirt. That was the one he was supposed to, to have a later when he would go to, to work, but he was, he was taking drugs. So, I mean, this, this work things would, would not work. I mean, because, but anyway, they have, they had this fight and then yes, he, they, they

[00:24:00] kind of took off their shirt to fight when they fought. And because he was under, he was under narcotics substances, all of them, all of them. So, and yes, so at one point, this shirt was all open. He took it out and it was like that with this kind of elegance pants oversized that he would, that he had to, to go to the restaurant where he worked. Like I, at one moment I was thinking I would not be able to, to take the, the, the images.

[00:24:28] And then there was also a moment that you actually found while you were driving along the border, people hiding in, in a bush. No, they were not hiding. They, they came out of the forest, of the bush asking for help. And they were, it was a couple of Mexican people, of Mexican migrants. Gabriel, the youngest one, I don't remember, it was about 20, 24 or something. And he was with his hound that is older than him.

[00:24:58] And they, basically his hound couldn't walk anymore. And they were in a bigger group that was, that crossed into the US. His hound couldn't work anymore. So he stopped with her and, and basically the entire group continued. So they were lost in the desert and they stumbled. We, we, we, we cross into each other as we were exploring those areas next to the border. And yes, at one point, the, the young guy came out of the vegetation, moving his hands.

[00:25:27] And we immediately understood it was migrants. Of course, you are very careful at the beginning because you don't know who you have in front. It could be the coyote that is trying to do something, or maybe they want to steal your car. Your, I mean, of course, no, but, but, but you, you cannot just drive by. I mean, we are in the, in the desert. I mean, these are dirty roads in the desert. No one might pass by for, for like days there.

[00:25:54] So you, it doesn't exist that you, if someone is asking for help, you, you stop. And so, yes, we stopped and we, we helped them. We, we, we, I took very few pictures of that situation. Just the, the one that, that is in the book. And when, when he arrived with her in his hands and, and yes. And then we helped them to, to, to, to, to, to get in touch with some people that could take care of them. Mm-hmm.

[00:26:23] These are the stories about the, the people there. And then you have the other side of people controlling the, the border. Which I told you already the picture I find fascinating about the man controlling with drones his own land. And yes, this was really like the, the, the, the, the, the, the highest point. No, no. I mean, yes. Of, of paranoia.

[00:26:46] The man that is investing his lot of money, millions of dollars in, in technologies to control his private ranch and land. And yes, yes. And, and this is, this is stuff that you, you get to researching, of course. I found him because I don't remember if Vice News or someone kind of crossed into them. And so I, I saw him and I, I thought I want, I want to meet this guy.

[00:27:16] You really go through everything. You must go really through everything that has been produced over the topic you want to work about. You know, to understand that there's some stuff you might be interested in doing as well. And to understand that some stuff you really want to avoid and, and, and, and your path, you do it through it. I mean, everything has been done. You know, you just have to find your way to do it. What is relevant. It's always interesting.

[00:27:41] And when you think about borderlands, Francesco, I mean, there are so many impactful stories and situations that you have encountered. There is one experience that had like a personal impact on, on you more as, as other ones. But probably this moment when, when we met, when we met lost migrants in the desert has been really touching first and what it means.

[00:28:09] And because I mean, it's not easy to, that something like that happens. It's often journalistically speaking, when you get to people crossing, you are with border patrols, you are with the authorities. It's, this was a really, an encounter from another planet because we were alone. They were alone. We were in the middle of nothing.

[00:28:31] Our path would never cross again, but we were sharing such an important moment where they were, yes. I mean, Americans, they call them aliens, the people without documents coming into the U S you know, and, and this says a lot about the feet, the general vision on it.

[00:28:52] And, but that day that meetings was really like meeting with aliens because this, me with these people, we had nothing in common, not our story, not our backgrounds, not our education, not our wealth, nothing. And, and still we were, we were, we were alone and both, all of us, we were sharing some risk in that situation.

[00:29:18] And so, yeah, I mean, it's been, it's been a strong moment and I'm, I'm glad we had the chance to help them and save them. Because this is, this is what you did bring them, put them in your car and bring them to a nearby community is something you can do. No, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:30:03] So literally starting the car, two mountain lions crossed our road. So we've been talking a lot about the fact that these two mountain lions were basically waiting for the night to, to attack them because there was so close to these two lost migrants. The night was coming. It was seven, six 30th night and it was getting dark. And so, yes, I mean, this, there's nothing different we could do.

[00:30:31] These, these people would, would, would not survive. Was it because at night it's quite cold in the desert? We all imagine this, the Sonoran desert as a tremendously hot place, but it's, it gets, it can get to zero at night in March, in winter or in early spring. It's very cold. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I'm more like to say, beside of the story, Francesco, because I saw you also make the picture of a, a quinceanera, the girl who turns 15.

[00:31:00] You were not invited to the, to the party? No, we were not invited. We just, we, we self-invited to the party, but everyone wants photographer at the party. So if, if there's not already a photographer. So I was working in, in these days, I was working in these communities that are called colonias. These communities are mainly in Texas and the communities that are there since the eighties.

[00:31:26] And now these communities are, are the first approach point we can say for, for migrants arriving to the U.S. because often they have some relatives in these communities. And so, yes, it was very interesting to spend time there. And I spent a few days there. And one of the things that I stumbled across was this, this party. Mm-hmm. But in general, it was, it was, it was fun to, to, to do, especially the first trip was, was, was fun to do this.

[00:31:56] Of course, of course, the research, of course, the journalistic side, of course, the seriousness of doing such a job. But you cannot do something like this if you're not having fun as you do it. I mean, also because of the risk that you're taking. And I mean, this is not something we do for the money, of course. The money is very, is very little in my industry. It's not about that. So yes, of course, the commitment is everything.

[00:32:23] But if you're not having fun as you do stuff, we wouldn't, I wouldn't do this. Of course, I have a lot of fun. Meeting people is fun. Meeting, risking a little bit is fun. So. And you would say most people were open to get their pictures taken there? Yes. I'm not sure this in general. And I'm not saying this happened because it was me. But, but yes, the borderlands.

[00:32:49] I mean, also for the things we were saying before, people have lived in very isolated place. They very solitary lives. The moment someone comes to your place and you trust him and he wants to take a picture of you for you, that that's a moment for an important statement. You know, the photographer is living with that picture and is living with a, with a, with a statement of yourself saying, this is what I am. This is what I live. This is where I live.

[00:33:18] And I think this is the main reason people exposed during this job. I was really feeling a genuine need to, to, to make, to make a certain statement. And, and in general, I let a lot of freedom to people to, to be photographed in the way they want. Of course. Francisco, let's talk a bit about photojournalism in general.

[00:33:44] I think it's you who told me once that photographers, they start or they stop being neutral the moment they decide what to shoot. What to work about or the topic they want to take care of. It's already a choice. Is there a way to, to keep neutrality in, in photojournalism? No. There's not. Not. The only way is making boring images. Neutrality is very boring also. What is neutrality?

[00:34:14] I mean, already the angle that you photograph something to, to, to stay not conceptual, but visual. The angle you decide to shoot something, things might look different, you know, and, and the way the lens you use, you might add or enhance. A certain attitude in that image or the distance that you decide to, everything is a choice. And it's a matter of how you are relating with what is happening in front of you.

[00:34:43] So, there's not a way to avoid this. And, and, and I see now photojournalists are using a lot this, this to say, oh, you're not a photojournalist. You're, you cannot, you're an activist. You're not, everyone is an activist. I mean, no one is more activist than a journalist or, or the, or a photojournalist. I mean, you're active about something, about the need to go deeper into a phenomena, into an issue, to understand more.

[00:35:13] Of course, if you, it means you believe it's important for people to know more about that specific thing, you know. So, and so you're already taking a position, you're already saying a lot about yourself. This is what I believe. What would you say to young people wanting to start out in photojournalism? There is an important issue in this moment. Our industry, it's falling apart.

[00:35:38] I mean, for real, like, so, I mean, photojournalism, photojournalism is made for the medias, is made for the newspapers. And there is a way you shoot because that image must go, like, I mean, keep certain information. It must fit the graphic of the newspaper or the front page or, you know, I mean, I studied, I studied that you, you must never, I mean, you must never have an object in the center because that's where the double spread goes. I mean, you understand, no?

[00:36:07] So, you understand how that can impact the way you shoot, you know. And in the beginning, it was all about wide angles with images as full as possible of things, information. But I started moving to another kind of photography that very important references and that works differently. And, no, sorry, now I don't remember the question, the exact question, what was. The question was for people starting out in photojournalism. What advice would you give?

[00:36:37] I mean, study a lot, study a lot, you know, inform yourself about the things you want to narrate and work freely, freely. Because now we are not, there's not such an industry that can finance your work all the time. So that doesn't make sense to shape your work on that photojournalistic industry because it doesn't exist anymore. And so work freely.

[00:37:07] Look for the language that fits more for you. Invent. And books are becoming, books are flying. They're going very well in photography. I was told, the other day I was in Milan doing my presentation at Mi Camera, which is one of the, probably the most beautiful photography bookstore in Italy, but I would say among the best in the world. And they were telling me things are going well. Books are flying.

[00:37:35] So you see, you have this, the news industry falling down, but then books becomes a beautiful media to, to, to vehicle a slow message, you know, because here is about a slow message in the end. It's not about, I have to show you, to you this immediately because you have to immediately do something. No, this is slow message.

[00:37:59] And it's all about interrogating ourselves on topics and trying to have some historic account on, on what happened and what, what happened in certain periods in certain areas. And that's it. And guys, you must know, the phone will not ring every day when you're out of the school. So, I mean, we were prepared, you know, you have to pitch a lot. You have to be strong on topics.

[00:38:25] You have to start working on things and then you will get the work. Now you start working on things, you don't get the work. So it's even, it's even more tough. And I see this with my young assistants. A few of them are, are growing well. They are, they are good photographers. It's tough. It's tough.

[00:38:46] We are talking about 30 years old photographers and never, they never had an assignment from a media or from an important media. And, but they are maybe exhibited in festival and starting to get little local prizes and stuff. But this recognition doesn't go anymore with, with getting, with getting a few opportunities. Let's talk a bit about recognitions, Francesco.

[00:39:15] So you have been twice a finalist in the Laika Oscar Barnack Award and you won Visador in 2019, I think. Talk me a bit about the work that you did that won you the Visador. So the Visador, it's a prize they give in the Perpignan, the festival, the photojournalist festival in Perpignan. It's a very photojournalistic prize.

[00:39:42] And that's why I'm particularly happy that I won that prize with a certain photography approach. The prize was given to me and to the Liberation, the newspaper Liberation for a work we did together. In the time I was working on the border, working, producing my personal project, Borderlands, I got an assignment, 10 days of assignments that were a little bit in the US and a little bit in Mexico.

[00:40:10] For a big story about a migrant caravan that was arriving to Tijuana in that period. So, so you see here we were in the emergency approach. Like something is happening, something big is happening. Go and cover. You are the photographer that is working there. Go and cover and cover it. And it was interesting to be able to win this prize when I, of course, cover the news story, but with a very, with a very similar approach to the way I was working on the US side.

[00:40:41] And, and yes, so we did this story and it came out, I mean, it came out well, we did some amazing work with the journalist I was with at the time. And, and then the Visador basically works like this. Every media outlet, newspaper, let's say, send to Perpignan what they think it's the best story. They produce it in the entire year.

[00:41:04] So they send in a photographic reportage and you have, yeah, from New York Times to Washington Post to Le Monde to Libération to whatever, like usually it's about 30, 35 newspapers worldwide participating with what they believe is the best story they did in the year. And then there's a jury selecting what's the best of the best somehow of that year. But it's very, it's a prize that is very related to publications.

[00:41:29] Like you cannot get the Visador without, without being on a newspaper. The story you covered there, Francesco, it was with the exodus of, of, of all these people moving from middle Latin America up to, to the border, no? Yeah. Yeah. It was very, there was a lot happening, of course, on the, on the Mexican side, you know.

[00:41:52] So, but then in the end, it's always, apart from a few situations that I was able to find, it was a lot about action, you know, it was about shelters. It was about people really having hard times and not knowing where to cross the border, what to do. And which, which is always interesting, but it's not where I base my research, let's say. I don't like to go to places.

[00:42:15] I, I'm happy to work on assignment on stories like this, but for my personal work, I, I, I rather go to a place, not in the moment where all the medias are there. And, and I mean, when I was in Tijuana and end of 2018, everyone was in Tijuana. People was taking flights from Italy to Tijuana just to cover the story. Let's talk about you one moment, Francesco.

[00:42:43] Has becoming for you a father influenced your, your work and your perspective? Totally. Absolutely. Yes. I think it's always like this. It's, it's becoming a father. It's a big change in, in, in perspective, in the way you see a lot of things. And then it's a practical change in terms of the time that you have.

[00:43:08] But yes, your vision changes, you grow, you become more mature. So you realize there are things you did in the past, photographically speaking, you will not be able to do it anymore. And at the same time, you realize you have a much clearer view on the things you want to do.

[00:43:29] And you have a much clearer view on how to get there, which much, with much less energy or money, or which maybe when you are younger, you have a lot of energy, you know, and you're, you can be around for like three days, but then maybe it takes you three days to, to get to something that now you get enough an hour because you know how to approach it. So, you know, it's slowing down a bit, you know, and it's less time on the field.

[00:43:58] But when you are on the field, you don't lose a minute. Before, you know, it was a lot of time on the field, a lot of freedom. You cost less. Also, your life costs less, you know, when you're very, very young, you sleep everywhere, like for real now.

[00:44:15] No, like after a hard day of work where you have been meeting, whatever, you've been going through whatever kind of nature, maybe you want to, you want to be relaxed. You want to be, and this is real. It's real. Also because if you don't sleep well the day after, you don't work.

[00:44:36] I was just wondering, because now becoming a father, on your personal level, if now you had to do a project with children, would it be different than before becoming a father? Yes, I have to say I've never been a big fan, a big fan of shooting children. And this is something I was quite aware since quite the beginning.

[00:45:04] Not really the beginning because, of course, the children are a very easy subject to photograph, you know. And so this is a mistake that every photographer does at the beginning to kind of go to some exotic place and focus on children of these exotic places. But so it's never been my thing.

[00:45:23] And I've always been very careful not to photograph children in my photography unless it's strictly necessary for something that I'm doing or for a message that I really need to bring out. But it's not really like this abundance of photograph of children. Like I really try to avoid them. It's there. Also, when I got to certain places where there are a lot of children, you want to get rid of them. They are problematic. They scream a lot. They take the attention. They want the camera.

[00:45:52] And maybe you have some adult people that you need to concentrate about. And this is really respecting a community. Like getting into a community and like spending one hour shooting children all the time around. You're like, what is this? Like imagine someone coming to a kindergarten in Spain or Italy, going in and starting shooting my daughter. Like we would go crazy on them.

[00:46:21] This said, it's not that I disrespect people. I mean, you can take beautiful pictures of children. It's never been an interest. And this is something I say often also to students or in workshops or when some people comes with a lot of images of children from their last trip to Africa. I really try to deconstruct this immediately. And, you know, I'm saying we are going in a completely different direction. Don't go to Africa to make images.

[00:46:51] You're white. Why are you going to Africa? We've done it all. We've created an entire historical narration made by us on them. We're still referring to that culturally. Let's start building up something different, you know. And so I take it very radical and I'm like, I'm very, yeah, I'm very interested about us. About.

[00:47:16] And where do you see yourself going future wise, like the best place to be for your career and for your family? I want to leave. No, I want to stay in Italy and live in the countryside. I think this would be the happy choice that I hope one day to be able to do. And travel wise, photography wise, this project that I'm working on now about the European borderlands is really becoming so fascinating.

[00:47:46] The more I work on it and also here learning so many things that I kind of found my fantasy world, this borderlands. And this is what I want to do for the next years. I have so many places I need to go and this puzzle and to see how to put together this European puzzle that yes, thinking about it makes me feel good. And so I think this is a good sign in terms of living life in a good way.

[00:48:16] And for your daughter also, she can ride very good bicycle there. Yes. Absolutely. We didn't touch the topic of gear. The only thing I find fascinating is you worked in Greece four years and you used only one lens. Yes. And also now, also borderlands is done with one lens. And it's always the same lens. And it just changed it because borderlands is made in medium format. So it's 45 that becomes a 35.

[00:48:45] In Greece, I was a bit more wide and I shot entire work with a 28. Yes. This was going to be my first question now in the quick question round. I don't know if you are good in quick question rounds because you like to think and you like to talk. No, no, no. I will be fast. If you can have only one lens for the rest of your career, which one would it be? 35. What's your favorite snack when you're on the road to keep you going? Cigarettes.

[00:49:15] Cigarettes. But just on the road, I don't smoke cigarettes at home. If you could collaborate with any historical photographer, who would you choose? Walker Evans. What's the best piece of advice you ever have been given as a photographer? Shooting straight. Straight. Never. Like life can be upside down. The world has mountains. But your camera, straight.

[00:49:44] Because already, you know, you got a lot of... In the dead life, it's a lot of lines and diagonals. And so there's really no need to make these diagonals yourself. Stay straight and go where you find the diagonals if you like them. Francisco, what is the most unexpected thing you learned from photography? I don't know. Every day I'm learning. I'm learning something.

[00:50:09] It's such an excuse to mess around with people in a good way, of course. And to get to know each other and to understand things about yourself, things about others. It's a good way to be alive, this. It's a nice dance. Yes. And then if you put your camera gear down, describe me. What's your perfect day?

[00:50:38] What it would be. The perfect day, it's still with the camera in my hands, on the field. But I would like to, I was saying, living in the countryside and then just take care of my vegetables. And maybe some animals also. That I would not kill. Just keep them. And play with them with my daughter. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:01] I mean, all this life of travels, of being around, of seeing so many different things. It really doesn't make sense by itself. It just makes sense if it relates to a local dimension where you can bring all these things that you learn. Otherwise, it's just, it's nothing. I mean, it's just being around. And yes, of course, there are so many different things.

[00:51:27] But at the end of the day, what am I doing with all these different things? That's so beautiful to be in a specific place you like. Already knowing that all this exists is already adding so much to the way I see life. So I really imagine, I imagine life very simply in the nature, doing sometimes my travels and my trips. And there's always something to bring back. Is it something material? Is it something you learned?

[00:51:57] Is it something, you know, you've learned in a faraway country and you want to build next to your house in the forest there, a tree house in a particular way? Everything. I think it's a perfect answer. Now, my only last question is cooking skills. How are your cooking skills? They're good? I defend myself. I'm good with the meats. I'm good with the pasta. I'm good with the long cooking meats.

[00:52:28] Like tonight we're going to eat some ragu. It's like the pasta bolognese, the sauce with meat, tomato and meat. I cook it for nine hours. And you're also an adventure eater when you're out working on projects? No. No, not so much. Of course I try things, but eating for me is a comfort zone.

[00:52:51] So at the end of tough day, also, I mean, having uncertainty on what I'm putting in my mouth is not really the best feeling. And so I go for things that I kind of know, maybe also exotic, but that I know that I like. But yes, there's not space for experimenting also on that side because it goes wrong. Everything that can go wrong. There's so many things that can go wrong in the work you do.

[00:53:15] You don't want to have other things going wrong in the same days, like feeling bad for something you should and like being all night in the toilet and saying, I should have not eaten, tried that. This is the bullshit you do when you're in your 20s at the beginning, you know, where photographing it's everything but about the photographic performance.

[00:53:41] And then it all goes to the photographic performance and you also understand how to be there when you need to perform. Because it's a performance, because yes, you wake up early in the morning, you go to sleep late and you're devastated at the end of those days when you're on the field. And I repeat, when you're young photographers, remember, it's not the same anymore. When you're, I just turned at 40, when I was like 28, it was double.

[00:54:10] Running double, double energy. So keep that in mind and use well the energy you have. You see, on this note, I think we can conclude this little talk, Francesco. It was a pleasure, Tom. It was a pleasure. Yes, it's been very interesting. I hope so. It's been very interesting getting to know you better and your vision about photogermalism. Because there's a world I don't know nothing about. I only can imagine how hard it has to be.

[00:54:41] But it's been really, really nice to talk to you, Francesco. I hope you enjoyed it. Absolutely. It was really nice, Tom. Keep me on the loop of the book. How can I get a copy? You can. You have it on your website? You can get it from the editor, from Carer. You can get it from a lot of distributors online. But I'm now starting from December 1st.

[00:55:07] A direct sale from myself with signed copies and one print inside. At the same price of the price you would find if you order it. But with the print and signed edition. And I'm doing a series of 50. Francesco, thanks a lot. Have a nice evening still with your family. A nice meal. And please keep in touch about your board projects. Absolutely. Okay. We see each other. Bye, Tom.

[00:55:36] And folks, that's a wrap on our conversation with Francesco Anselmi. His perspective on the changing landscape of photojournalism, the power of in-depth storytelling, and the role of a photographer in today's world was truly eye-opening for me. If you want to see more of Francesco's work, check out his website, francescoanselmi.com Check out our show notes. And as always, folks, if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with fellow photographers. It makes a big difference

[00:56:05] in moving our show forwards. And speaking about moving forwards, don't forget to move your own photography forwards and be inspired by all the guests we had on our show. Now, pick up your camera, go out, and we'll hear each other next week for another episode of the Camera Cafe Show. Adios!

italy

"Francesco Anselmi: Photojournalism in a Changing World"