Tom: Then, Chris, I got a long email from Jim (Richardson) and he basically told me, you can ask him about you playing the trombone in Cuba, Kansas, which involved a lot of beers, or you can talk about a Friday that you spent in the Mill Creek Tavern. Any of these stories would be good, he told me.
Chris: Yeah. You know, Jim was a huge, and Sarah was, Jim was a huge influence on me, and he was doing at Topeka, he was doing extraordinary documentary work. Um, and the kind of documentary work that. That resonates with me today and has resonated, always resonated with me. Uh, and it was, it was Rossville High School that he was documenting life at the high school. And then, um, there was a little town he documented close to where he grew up, Cuba, Kansas, a little cze town. And, uh, you know, uh, so I went over with Jim. It was a couple hour drive from Topeka. Yeah, in high school, junior high school, I played the trombone. was a tuba player. Uh, so, you know, I picked up my trombone again and Jim in the Cuba band. Uh, I sat on the tailgate of a, of a old pickup truck with the other trombone player. He was first trombone. I have a second. Um, but, you know, uh, if, if you do, uh, if you play brass instruments, it takes a long time to get back in shape play the, uh, the instrument with any, uh, skill. And, uh, Jim, not too long ago, introduced me, uh, and mention this and, and let the crowd know the truth. And the truth is, and was. I was a terrible trombone player in the Cuba band, but damn, I had a lot of fun. and yeah. Yeah, Jim and I, and I had a few beers. Yeah. Yeah. We, we, we had a lot of fun there. And, and yeah, we occasionally, uh, might disappear on a Friday afternoon and he'd be kinda working on his projects. I'd kind of be working on a projects, I say that very loosely yeah, we, um, we got, uh, we got in hot water a few times. but, you know, we survived and it was all good. So, uh, you know, you mentioned two who are very dear to my heart and Sarah and Jim, and had a big influence on me as a photographer and me as an editor. Yeah.
Tom: Yeah. They speak nothing but nice words about you, Chris. I have a very long email from both of them, and then I have Robert Madden. I was talking with him the other day and he told me, remind Chris the time, I think it was a rodeo, that Robert, he couldn't, he couldn't get in and you lent him his press vest to go inside
Chris: yes,
Tom: just to do a quick tour. So they knew his face and then he gave you the jacket back and then something happened with the yogurt bottle because you were trying to eat healthy.
Chris: Yeah. But, um. Uh, I had, you know, going to Oregon State Land Grant College, um, and being in the school ag because I was, uh, you know, a pre-vet major. so I knew a lot of people in my FFA days and stuff. so I was working for the Sunday Times actually, uh, and doing a story in the Pendleton Roundup, which is something I'd gone to as a kid. And loved the Pendleton Roundup and had a lot of close friends, as I mentioned, uh, whose families have been involved in it for decades. So, um, yeah, I had a press pass to go inside the field, um, you know, they don't give to everybody because it'd be chaos, you know, then you're in the infield, you gotta have your wits about you gotta be watching what's going on. So anyway, I, you know, I'd met Bob before at the Geographic and always loved Bob. And so I just thought, you know, he was working for National Geographic and getting the runaround. So, uh, you know, I, aware of rules and I appreciate rules, but. not always a rule follower. So, uh, yeah, I, I, uh, Bob to some people and, you know, used my press pass some, and then, yeah, then he was, you know, I mean, Bob's a great guy. I mean, everybody likes Bob.
Tom: Hmm.
Chris: uh, you know, got in and we're shooting away and then, uh, Bob and I wanted to go get some lunch and, you know, both of us, uh, have never been, you know, huge fast food people, you know, because of the rodeo. There was a lot of bad food, man. we went over to the local Safeway and I, uh, you know, we both got yogurt, 'cause I always liked yogurt and I got like raspberry yogurt. so, um, we went, we went back in the rodeo grounds and there were these kind of, uh, plastic pipe, pretty fragile fences that sort of contained the bulls during bull riding. And, um, so we're on the other side of that fence and, uh. A series of things happened. One of the bulls bucked off a cowboy, and he came up pretty close to me and a couple other people, uh, and looked at us and I've spent so much time with cattle. I looked at this bull and I thought, uh, this guy's drawn a bead on me. And that fence between us, that little plastic fence that's like going south, you know? So sure enough, that's what happened. He kicked it over and he drew a beat on me, and I played with bulls. Again, I guess it's part of that wild street. 'cause a kid growing up on the farm and stuff, so I thought, well, you know, I can, I can turn faster than he can turn. So I kind of put my hand out. The problem was, when I used to do that as a kid growing up, I wasn't carrying three or four camera bodies, know, with a 302 8 and a 402 8 maybe, and, know, everything in between that and a 20. uh, the, i, I spun, but the bull hit me and flipped me in over in and then took off, uh, for somebody else. But what happened was, you know, a bunch of, you know, they got medics all over there and emergency, so they came over and it hit square that, uh, raspberry yogurt. So it had sort of exploded. Uh, it was, excuse me, it was raining. So. exploded all over my raincoat. And I think they thought that it was internal injuries, you know, that had ripped open my stomach or something. And so they're telling me, lay down, lay down. Oh no. You know, I said, no, I'm fine. You know, it just got bumped, you know? no. So was there and witnessed all that and, you know, everything turned out fine. But, yeah, it was, know, that's one of the wonderful things about our careers is all these great colleagues you have,
Tom: Yeah.
Chris: know, and to help each other and to lift each other. Uh, and, you know, and I've been so fortunate to have that in my career, and so that really makes me strongly, uh, with what I do now with teaching students
Tom: Yeah.
Chris: to give back because I've been given so little. Uh, you
Chris: been given so much in my career.
Tom: Yeah.
Chris: So,
Tom: Yeah.
Chris: that's funny that Bob's talking about that.
Tom: He sent me a picture, he sent me by WhatsApp, a picture, and he says, Tom, this is the story I was talking to you about, but I don't remember if it's you with the bull in the picture or not, but I will check it and I will let you know.
Chris: Yeah. I don't know. I will say this, Bob and I with a bunch of my buddies from Oregon, uh, that night went to, uh, you know, to have a few beers and I was amazed how many people recognized me coming up to me and asking me how I was, uh, especially yeah, I mean, you know, men and women. It was, I was, uh, you know, had my moment in the spotlight as a Pendleton Roundup celebrity for, uh, till about midnight.
Tom: Yeah. So Chris, then things got a bit more serious and you became editor in chief of National Geographic. What's, what's the number one worry for an editor in chief of National Geographic?
Chris: Well, day to day, the number one worry is, uh, the security of the people who are out there on assignment.
Tom: Hmm. Hmm.
Chris: You know, that they're safe, uh, that they're giving what they need, uh, to be safe and to complete the assignment, uh, you know, to the best of their ability. Uh, and to also protect, um, the time and the resources, the fee field people have. I mean, I'm a product of the field, obviously, uh. You know, we started to have to deal with a lot of the transitions that have occurred in media. Uh, and so we had to, excess fat we had to cut. And then of course, you start to cut muscle, and that's taxing. That's, that's difficult say the least. But the thing we tried to do preserve that thing that made National Geographic so special. that was time in the field, you know, and having the resources that you needed to tell meaningful stories in unforgettable ways, was our job. So, um, to nurture that, to grow that, as you know, storm clouds were on the horizon financially was, um, a big challenge. Um, but we had. I had a great team with me, and we were all rolling in the same direction, and we did a lot of stories that we should all be proud of.
Tom: Because having been a photographer yourself in the field before then, what did you expect from photographers working for National Geographic?
Chris: I expected them, um, to work their butts off. I expected them, to be honest, I expected 'em to have integrity in the field. I expected them to have operate under the highest journalistic principles. Um, I expected them, if I asked them an uncomfortable story about a, an uncomfortable question about a picture or, uh, you know, how the picture was made or what it meant, I expected them honest. Most of the time they were, but there were some times they were. And, you know, because, um, that's hurtful, if on rare occasions that honesty is breached. Uh, because one of the most important things in journalism, important things in life is trust. You know, and you've got to trust. They have to trust you the editor, that you have their back, and that you have your best intentions for them. Uh, and I know you've gotta trust them in the field that you know, they're gonna make good decisions, they're gonna be the right decisions, and, uh, they're dedicated, totally dedicated to tell the story. Um. Truthfully and honestly and powerfully.
Tom: Hmm.
Chris: You know, the other thing you want is a term we used to use is you want money pictures. You, you know, you need storytelling pictures. But you all, you know, in that context, you need stories that take your breath. You need pictures that take your breath away. It just go, oh my goodness. You know, I don't know if I would've seen that. So, uh, you know, a thing that I came to really love as being editors was, um, you know, given let's say Mike Ni, Michael Nichols, uh, you know, an assignment, uh, in the Serengeti and on Lions, and him coming back with pictures that just blow your mind, you know, that you couldn't, that you couldn't anticipate to see that, was probably an even bigger rush than when I would make a picture that resonated. So, um, you know, that was for me, that was the great pleasure of the job.
Tom: mm-hmm. Because in a way, Chris, you are like. Responsible for the way, how you show, how you show the, you show the magazine to millions of people
Tom: you shape how they see the world. You think about this responsibility. Hmm.
Chris: Yes, of course. Um, you do, but you know, you can't, um, I mean, that's a lofty thought and lofty thoughts are, you know, can drive you to do great things. you know, you also, um, need the ingredients to tell great stories. And so, uh, you know, a lot of it's. Kind of more nuts and bolts, and then you create an environment photographers are challenged. they're given the resources, the backing they need to go do great work. So, um, you know, and we, you know, we did a lot of research as to what our readers expected from us, um, what they liked, what they didn't like. we did a lot of research relative to just the numbers of newsstand sales, especially with our international partners, because a bigger hunk of their circulations, newsstand sales. And I was always fascinated with that. But still, uh, you know, what you're doing when you put together such as National Geographic, is balancing wonder and worry. We used to use that phrase you've got pictures that are Celebrate life, celebrate. celebrate a species, celebrate a culture. Uh, and you know, and that's a real important part of the mix. That's a symphony of a magazine. And then you do, stories. You know, you may hire Jim Noway to do a story on South Africa, you know, and what's going on Posta Apartheid, uh, you know, you do stories that are, you know, pretty tough stories that may be dealing with endangered species and poaching and, you know, so you're always looking for a balance between, um, that wonder of the world which you wanna celebrate, uh, that you wanna bring forward. And then the worries that.
Tom: Hmm.
Chris: We should be worried about as,
Tom: Yeah.
Chris: citizens of planet Earth. And, and that relates to the health of the environment that's nurtured us and also social justice and how we treat each other.
Tom: Were there moments, Jim, when you were editor, that a decision kept you up at night?
Chris: Oh, sure. Yeah. uh, in an editing stories. And then, you know, situations where photographers are like Pascal Matri, my favorite photographers, one of my favorite people came to me, uh, and said he could go, uh, and photographing Mogadishu. And we talked about that for years. And I said, man, Pascal, was not too long after Black Hawk down.
Chris: Uh, a deed, uh, and, you know, just a lot of turmoil in Moga Moga, but throughout, um, the nation of Somalia, I'd worked in Djibouti, I'd worked in that neck of the woods, uh, and in ait tree and stuff, and knew that, you know, you really gotta, gotta have great minders, guides, advisors, interpreters you really trust. Um, but even then, know, things can really go south. And, you know, Pascal said, no, I can do this. one of the few people that when he told me that he was working with a really good writer too, a wonderful guy, Robert Draper. Uh, and he said, no, I can do this. And he did. I mean, he made extraordinary pictures and that I'd, you know, I'd asked him about those pictures. Uh, he'd say, uh, well, yeah, we were there for like five or six minutes and we had to leave. Uh, it was, you know,
Tom: Oh.
Chris: dangerous.
Tom: Hmm.
Chris: was, uh, true with a wonderful writer, Paul Pec, who was kidnapped and held for ransom when he was working in the Saal area on the Chad, uh, Sudan border. you know, I had to go to and Al Faher and with the help of many other good people, you know, negotiate his release. So yeah, those things, um, and are serious and they should be tweeted seriously, you know, and Paul's another, he's still working for National Geographic doing, the Out of Eden project. Um, but,
Tom: Yeah.
Chris: know, he had, he was a very strong. Uh, accomplished Africa Hand, as George Steinman used to say. he was working in Southern Sudan and he said, you know, and he did an extraordinary job as George often did. Always did really. And, uh, you know, he said, uh, you know, well this, you know, that's Sudan area, that's Southern Sudan. That's not for amateurs.
Chris: And you know, boy, you know, that's true. So
Chris: those things would keep you up at night.
Tom: It is fun because I just, I think three weeks ago I wrote an email to George and he says, Tom, I'm just about to take a flight to, I don't remember where, so we talk when I come back. So I will have an amazing talk with George also, I think he worked with Jim on this story with feeding 9 billion.
Chris: Yes, yes. Yeah. That was, uh, and, you know, George kept, you know, kept at that project and did an extraordinary book too, um, about feeding the world. Um, got it on my
Tom: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. George is a remarkable photographer.
Tom: Chris, has there ever been a photographer that has driven you crazy about a job, but he still delivered something brilliant in the end?
Chris: Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the thing you learn with experience is, uh, don't give up on people. And, you know, we all work at different paces on stories, have different strengths and weaknesses. But, um, you know, for 'em, be honest with them. Um, but try to bring 'em along and there's, that doesn't always work out, but more often than not, it does. Uh, and you know, for me as a editor and you know now more as a teacher,
Tom: Hmm.
Chris: there's, there's just great pleasure in that because you can be surprised. The point being, be too quick to judge, you
Tom: Hmm
Chris: be patient,
Tom: mm-hmm. Yeah. Let's talk a bit about your life. Go on Kris. Yeah.
Chris: no, the one, the one thing that trip a photographer up any of us up is hubris. And, and not that hunger to learn, that hunger,
Tom: Hmm.
Chris: uh, to become better. you know, and when that hunger, that hunger leaves, um, and just start to fall in love with your pictures, then that's a pretty precipitous path.
Tom: Hmm. I was thinking more Kris in a way that. A photographer comes to you with a story and you say, nah, I don't see it. And he kept going, coming back and back and back and back. And then in the, in the end. Yeah. You had, you had to tell that. Yes. He, he did a great job.
Chris: Yeah, I mean, there, I'm glad you brought that up, Tom, because there, there are, you know, there are very good examples of that where, um, photographer is so passionate, so driven, obsessed, because it's an obsession with telling that story and they come back and. They come back and they come back and then eventually you go, wow. Okay. And then, you know Sarah and I used to do a lot was look at photographer's work, identified, uh, a body of work and then maybe approach that photographer, Aaron Huey would be an example of that. He was working at Pine Ridge Reservation, um, near Rosebud, really tough place. A place that needs a voice, the people who need a voice, the Ogallala And um, you know, he, we saw these pictures he was making really on his own that were extraordinary. So we'd go, you know, we went to Aaron and said, Hey, we talked to him in the past about various things you know, are you interested in, you know, we'll give you some more seed money, spending more time there. And he produced extraordinary story for us. So that was another way we used to, Sarah was really good at finding talent. Oh my goodness. know, that's one of her great passions and, and coaching that talent. And she's been an incredible mentor to my daughter Susan Welchman has as a picture editor, uh, to this day. And really helped my daughter Louise, uh, grow tremendously as a photographer.
Tom: Yeah. Well, now you mentioned Luis, let's the question I had, because there is this wonderful documentary about you and your daughter, um, the wonder and the worry.
Chris: Yes.
Tom: So the which, which also that Sarah told me, it's a phrase that got used a lot, uh, when while I worked at National Geographic.
Chris: Yes. Yeah. Um, well, I went to Oregon State University and um, they, you know, gave me one of those alumni wards, uh, probably with a help the hope that I had some money and contribute to their foundation. Of course, I'm a journalist, so I don't have much money, but, uh, anyway, I've met some people, uh, a wonderful filmmaker named David Baker, uh, he started out just kind of like a, I don't know, five to 10 minute alumni film or something. And so he started talking to me about, you know, transition in journalism in the business. And I said, well, you know, um, David, you should talk to my daughter, because she's in the middle of that. I mean, she's. On the front lines like so many young emerging photographers are. And so he talked to Louise before you know it, you know, it becomes a 90 minute documentary. So,
Tom: Yeah.
Chris: um, and a lot of it of course explored, uh, our relationship, but it was still balance. We talk about consistently of, you don't wanna bludgeon the people who, uh, come to your online work or your printed work or film, or whatever the case may be in media, platform you're using where you're just. Depressing them with, you know, all the worries of the world, uh, but to celebrate the wonders. And that was kind of the theme of the film is finding balance because they're both equally important. Um, and Louise is actually quite good at that. So, uh, it was a joy. I mean, I've worked on that film
Tom: Hmm.
Chris: for more than two years, um, uh, with Louise, uh, and, uh, went to a lot of places, especially in
Tom: Yeah.
Chris: uh, where I grew up, and like the redwoods that I flocked to when I was a child, that those landscapes influenced me. And, uh, same with Louise and um. Her, her body of work is largely documenting ranch life in Montana with her husband and her son and her little daughter, to be here in another couple of months. Uh, and, uh, you know, she's hung with that. And again, I emphasize she's had great mentors her,
Tom: Yeah.
Chris: that's great.
Tom: You see similarities at how you both look at the world, or you think she brings something different with.
Chris: she brings something different, uh, for sure. I mean, because she's a woman, because she is a mother. but you know, we also share a lot of the same loves, you know, the love of family, love of wild landscapes, um, know, the love of rural life. Uh, so yeah, we share the same values. Uh, but what's beautiful about it is, uh, we see differently because we're different, different people. And
Tom: Yeah.
Chris: she, uh, I mean, I would say at this point in her life, shes a better photographer than I was at that point in my life because she's found her voice and she's had to find her voice to make a living. it's, it's really challenging out there.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Can you convince her to come on the podcast?
Chris: Of course. Yeah. She'll
Tom: Okay.
Chris: do it after she, a few months after she's had her little baby girl, which would be
Tom: Yeah, of course.
Chris: yeah, she would, she would love to.
Tom: That will be amazing.
Chris: Yeah.
Tom: Chris, what piece of advice, it's a classical question, but what piece of advice would you give to someone who starts out with photography now? Hmm.
Chris: Oh, um, you know, photograph what you really care about. Um, you know, I think it's, it's, it's as important as ever, maybe more important now to have a distinct voice as a photographer and as a writer. Um, not at the expense of great journalism, uh, because it's not about you, but, um, to have a voice that's shaped by the things in the world you really, really care about. And, um, Louise would be a good example of that. Uh,
Tom: Hmm.
Chris: know, she really cares. Ranch life. She cares about, um, ranchers who have learned to live with grizzly bears, learned to live with wolves, mountain lions, you know, and how you, uh, negotiate that dance. you know, that's important to her. Uh, and how, you
Tom: Hmm.
Chris: and the kinship you have with the land. Uh, you know, those were things that, you know, Jim Richardson was working on when he was photographing near his hometown of Belleville in that little community of Cuba. And, you
Chris: of community and people working together. So, um, you know, it's, it's, yeah, you gotta shoot a lot of pictures. You gotta look at those pictures. With clear eyes, you know, and how they can be better, uh, and, and, yeah. You know, seek mentors, seek colleagues, uh, who you can draw inspiration from. Um, but, uh, it just keeps coming back persistence, to resilience. And, um, you know, uh, ts Elliot says, you know, for us there is only the trying the rest is not our business. So, um, even though it's hard, uh, keep trying, you know,
Tom: mm-hmm.
Chris: what, you know, what drives the trying the things that you deeply, deeply care about.
Tom: Yeah. You, you remember the moment that maybe you found your voice, Chris? That exciting moment that you say that something changed and this is who? Who I am now?
Chris: Yeah, I think, um, that occurred, there was a confluence of a couple different things, uh, that occurred in Africa, I think, and Where it occurred in Africa was, I realized that, uh, I couldn't compare myself at that point to other photographers 'cause I was the only one there, you know, and I might be the only one who's in Djibouti photographing the r people. You know, I was the only one there who was in Gogo crater, you know, photographing elephants or in, uh, South Africa when they were culling elephants. You know, I was,
Tom: Hmm.
Chris: uh, so I had to, um, treat that access, uh, and that gift with respect and, you know, really take, uh, take it as far as I could. So, uh, think that coupled with becoming a father, uh, you know, being in a, in a.
Tom: Hmm.
Chris: uh, meaningful, happy marriage you know, just saying, well, you know, I wanna document things that I see and feel, uh, for my kids. And, you know, and I, you know, I want to try to make a difference so they can have some of the experiences that I've had, uh, especially in particular
Tom: Yeah.
Chris: places. So I think that that was, yeah, sort of a pivot. The combination of those two things was sort of a pivot point for me.
Tom: Now, you mentioned before the guru creator in in Tanzania. I was going to ask you, Chris, to end our talk today. Tell me one story, one moment in your life in photography. That would be a great ending for our conversation today, but maybe. When you had the encounter with the bull elephant in the
Chris: Yes,
Tom: crater would be a good story. Talk me about it.
Chris: yes. I mean, that was a seminal moment, Tom. There's no question about that. Um, I was early into my first Africa assignment, the R Valley. Uh, I'd been at it for several months and I was camped in Gora Crater Tanzania, one of the wild, you know, one of the most spectacular wildlife areas the African continent or in the world for that matter. it was very early in the morning, and I was with a Tanzania guy from AUSA Godfrey. And, uh, it was just at first light and it was, uh, it was sort of a fog bank uh, there was an image in the fog bank, but it was, it was hard to read. And then. This image came out of the Fog Bank and started to rub. He started this bull out and started to rub his tuss across yellow bar Akia trees. And so, uh, I was in our Land Rover and I, uh, we had a big roof hatch, and I climbed up on top of the roof hatch, to get a better angle on him. And I was, I was shooting him an 80 to 200 zoom. I mean, I was pretty close to him. I was probably 40 or 50 yards from him. And, um, he wasn't used to that silhouette. So, you know, he raised his tongue and turned, uh, raised his trunk and turned towards me. And then, um, slid down to the backseat again, through the rolled down window. uh, he went back to just grazing, uh, on this tree and on the grass. And then. His curiosity was peaked again. So he walked over towards us and I looked at Godfrey in the rear mirror. And this guy, he was a big boy, but the thing was, we recognized him 'cause we'd been in that, in the crater for roughly a month and seen him almost every day. So, uh, we decided to stay put and just see what he, what he was gonna do. And sure enough, he came right over to the front of the Land Rover, laid his tux on the hood of the Land Rover through that big roof hatch that I climbed through trunk, came through and started searching, uh, and touching my left side. Tickling me really with his hairs, and then came around the back of my head and touched my temple. And, and then even, I think I had a, like a M six around my neck and touched that. Uh, and I had this, you know, I could hear him breathe and smell this rich humus, sweet grass breath through his trunk. Um, and then he lifted his trunk, sauntered off towards another fog bank, and then turned and looked at me and slapped his head and disappeared, uh, in the, and yeah, I was, you know, speechless. I mean, I just had to take this in and, so one of the questions you may ask is, well, why did he do that? And, you know, I. I don't, I don't have any idea why he did it. I mean, curiosity. I mean, I, I don't know, to me, the ultimate question is what am I gonna do with that experience? You know, am I going
Tom: Yeah. Hmm.
Chris: use that to drive me to tell his story and to tell the story of his species and that species relationship with, uh, human beings and how we treat elephants? so that was a real for me. It also made me wonder what it's like to be an elephant. You know, what it's like to be an elephant in Gogo crater like him, what it's like to be an elephant Kruger Park being pursued by a helicopter, on the park border and eventually shot in the back of his head, which all things I witnessed and photographed. So, uh, yeah, it was, you know, it was. Uh, giving voice to a creature, uh, that gave you an incredible gift.
Chris: you know, and that's the other thing I would say about that encounter, uh, was that it really helped me trust wild animal. not foolishly, but, know, but to a degree that you feel you're probably gonna be safe and to not pursue them, let them come to be on their terms. And, you know, I have other experiences similar to that, um, after spending a lot of time, um, extraordinary things can happen and being patient. And that's also true with people, you know, uh, it's not exclusive, uh, to wild animals. If you, if you're a good listener you're willing to spend the time, uh, and you really care.
Tom: Yeah.
Chris: Um, you know, extraordinary things can happen.
Tom: Now you make me remember you ever met Jane Goodall, Chris?
Chris: Oh, yes. Yeah. Um, Jane, a few years ago came here to Missoula, uh, and filled, uh, the, uh, the big grassy expanse that's sort of the center of campus. Uh, on a Sunday. Uh, thousands of people came really no publicity, and Jane spoke and got to introduce Jane and then do a q and a with her. Uh, you know, I've known Jane for a long time, uh, and have respect for her that so deep. It's hard to express. I haven't spent the time with her that say Nick Nichols has, Nick has extraordinary uh, about Jane. But yeah, I mean, Jane is a. Was and still is a a beacon for me, for my family, especially for my daughters, my wife, um, also my students. I mean, so many people we know she's enriched their life so much. Yeah. I went to her, celebration of life at the National Cathedral of Washington DC and was so moved, um, with all the chains done.
Tom: But the stories you, like you just told, now you tell to your own grandchildren, Chris,
Chris: Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. Of course.
Tom: they love to hear the stories.
Chris: Yeah. Especially as they get a little bit older.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah.
Tom: Well, it continues. You give them a good example, Chris, and it'll all work out well.
Chris: Well, that's what one hopes. Yes,
Tom: Chris, I will cut this out, but now after we say goodbye, wait one moment still.
Chris: sure.
Tom: Chris, this has been such an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for sharing the stories, a bit about your life, about National Geographic, and I hope we can stay a bit in touch. Maybe if I make it to the US this year, we can continue our conversation maybe with a beer. I don't want to get in trouble with your wife, but I hope we can make this happen.
Chris: I would. I would love that. Tom. Thank you. Yeah, please come. You
Tom: Okay,
Chris: place to stay in Montana.
Tom: thanks so much. Okay. Okay then I see you around and have a nice day. Still there
Chris: Same to you, Tom. Thank you.
Tom: Bye.
Chris: Bye-bye.
