Tom: And here you are, Sarah, with me to talk about this. Yes. This new chapter of your life. So Sarah, you worked on some pretty amazing photo books by now. What's, your first criterion when you, when a new photographer sends you his work?
Sarah: Hmm.
Tom: Is it what make the pictures do to you? Or feel?
Sarah: Well, you know, every, the interesting, you know, what I love about books is that every book is so, it's so unique. There's no, know every book is its own jigsaw puzzle. So, like in working for a magazine as an editor, you have some structure built in the storytelling for a magazine. So the magazine is always the same size, you so the size of your pages, the designers are the same designers. So they usually have a stable of typeface. You know, generally, not always, but you have a certain amount of text. Often you'll most have a map. , Often there's illustrations and graphics and stuff like that. So those are all like, to you, that's gonna with a book. What do you wanna do? You what are you hoping to make? What kind of book do you wanna make here? And what's your book about? know, so there's a lot of conversation, you know, about, you know, I like to know like, if you had all the money in the world, what would be the book that you wanna make? Let's you and then let's, we'll scale. But I like to. think that every photographer I've ever met just about wants to do a book. It doesn't matter if they just walked out the door of college or they've been in the business for 25 years, they wanna do a book. And of course it's one of the best ways to display your work besides a exhibition or a , gallery show, or an installation. But, you know, it's, we love books, photographers, so we like the physical of it. And we can fall in love with books. I mean, I got a room full of books here, photo and I love them. Right. So I think as a editor with a photographer of their book is like, this is their dream making a book and. I want them to be so happy. I want them to be so happy with their book. Right. job. If they're not, I haven't done my job, know, because I'm helping, I wanna help them reach their dream, you know? And so we have budgets to, we have to take into consideration. That's the biggest limiting factor on a photo book is the budget. 'cause they're not cheap. They're not cheap to make. And in this world, in this market, you have to bring some money to the table. you have, you know, if you're Sebastian Salgado, probably not. Right? You don't, you know, he does, you know, book after book and I'm, anybody would be like, you know, yes, let us publish your book. You
Tom: Cool. Yeah.
Sarah: you're famous a big name, then you don't, I'm not, I'm not gonna say never, but I would imagine that you don't have to bring much money or everybody's in line to give you the money to make your book. A of the photographers I work with, this is their first book. And they are raising the money unless they find a publisher who is going to, and the publisher will print and distribute put their name on it. But a lot of 'em, you know, they, you have to bring some money, so it's expensive So is like the main limiting factor, is the budget on what you wanna do. Then you have not a lot of choices to make the size, the kind of paper, just one kind of paper or two kinds of paper, or three kinds of paper. Are you gonna have other little things that go into it? Are you gonna have pages that are tipped in and, you know, kind of lift off the page? I mean, there's so many possibilities, you know, And for me, the choices around that is serving the story. I'm all about the story. Like, I think everything has a story, even if it's like an art book or art photo book, there's still like some story woven through it. So what's the story? What are you trying to say? What is who's the audience for your book? You know, why does it need to be really big or can it be smaller? I think there's a trend with , photo books where they're smaller than they used to be used to be. Photo books were always like a big coffee table book, and you couldn't look at it unless you had a table, you know, it. You couldn't just sit there and have it in your hands and like, look at there's beautiful, beautiful books that are smaller. So there's a range. Now. They're not all huge which I think is better. It's, I think they're, it's more intimate. The experience, you know, is when they're, you can hold it easier. But I think that, you know, my first thing is like, what is the story? And, you, what is your goal? And who do you want to see this? And you know, a lot of the photographers I work with want to make some kind of impact with their work. know, they wanna, you know, change the world or they want to educate people about something, or elevate a topic, you know, that you need to know about. You need to see this. There's a lot of passion involved with the photographers, you know, when they're making their book. So it's really, really important for me to understand all that, to do a proper edit. And then, you know then for me it's like looking, and it's always been with editing. It's like what impact, what do I see and what is it like impacting me, you know, aesthetically sure. Communication emotion. You know, I always say, I say this, and I've said this every time I've talked to anybody, is I like pictures at the intersection of art and journalism. sweet spot photography is image making, which is an art form. So even if it's photojournalism, it's, you're still dealing with an art form here. So I want pictures that I could, you know, that I look at it and I go, gimme that one. I wanna put it on my wall. photo. It must be published. Right? I also, as an editor, when I first started out as an editor, I wanted to be jealous. Every day I was looking at your pictures. If I wasn't feeling like, damn, I wish I could have taken that picture. wish I would've seen that way or something. I wanted to be like feeling jealous, so I knew that I had made the right decision becoming an editor because is just kicking it out of the park. They're like rocking it and I might not have seen that way or been able to do that, I recognize that you are doing it, you So I start by, you know, I'm very like highly organized and have all kinds of, like, I call them buckets that I put photos in by depending on the book, by sort of issues and types of photos and everything so that I can edit that way. a lot of the, I would say , pretty much all the photographers I work with come out of photojournalism. some, but there's, that doesn't mean there's no art in the
Tom: Of course.
Sarah: Right. and I'm really meddlesome too. I think a lot of designers probably don't really like to work with me because I'm so used to doing all of it. You know? I mean, I want to sequence the whole book, I find my editing also about the sequence. if I'm editing it, the order that it goes in affects the edit. And then I always have ideas about things that are more the designers, like different kinds of paper or different sizes of paper, or let's do some vellum or, you know, put a photo on that. And all in service of telling the story the photographer wants to tell. And I meet with them lots constantly and do make keynote edits of the book and send them back and forth and, you it's a lot of fun. starting at ground zero, you know, whole different person, whole
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah: book, whole different size and shape. I worked on several books. Pretty much since I left there, I've probably done one or two books a year for photo evidence, which is out of France. And they, it's nonprofit publisher. Svetlana Anova is the, is the editorial lead. It's her company, her and her husband's. And we, I've done like three different books about the Ukraine with her That have been more like multiple photographer books, which is like a whole different Thing.
Tom: YI was going to ask you about Ukraine war crime, 93 photographers there. So this is another learning curve, I guess for Sarah Lin. How you, approach this.
Sarah: Well that was the first book was War Crimes and the second one was Love Plus War. And she did an open call, to photographers to submit work for possible use in the book, right in the books. So we probably got like, , and not just single images, but also stories. If somebody had a series or something, you they that would we welcome that. So then probably more than a hundred, probably about 120 or so, 30 photographers submitted. We got about 6,000 photos. and then it was, well me having a huge learning curve about Ukraine their and the history of their conflicts from, you know, 20 11, 12. On, to understand this was, this first book was from 2022 from the Invasion Forward to present. so I had met this young woman , she was going to school at the University of Missouri Journalism School where I went to school at the Missouri Photo Workshop, which I attend generally and also teach at. And she was one of the, students who was helping work on running it. And she's from Ukraine, rinka, her ska, and I was just starting to work on this and I had, I was thinking the whole time it was like, you know, why am I doing this book? You know, I mean, like, I'm not Ukrainian you but I need somebody who's Ukrainian to work with me. I can't just do this. You know, even studying up and stuff, it's not good. It's not a good enough. So I talked Toa bringing her in as like an assistant photo editor, and that was massive help. You know, she could explain things to me. We would look at the edits and she helped me a lot in terms of like, I wanna get this right. You know, and the different photographers. And she knew some of the photographers and stuff like that. And the photographers were not just Ukrainian, they're Ukrainians, but they're from everywhere. was going over there. know, the world to cover those, first few years. so yeah, we had, it was not entirely but a bit of a, like, sort of a TikTok put together. It was sort of put together in the order of things happening, right? Not were there were key locations where things had happened, you know, and Bucha and you know, Mario
Tom: Hm.
Sarah: And sort of sections. You know, 'cause we had a whole lot of pictures from here or IV or here. So we kind of put it together in order of, a lot of things were all at the same time. So it's not really in order entirely, but it was by, kind of by location. And then, there was other, you know, we had people, you know, color, black and white tin types, you know, tune a quarter, I mean all kinds of formats and styles. And so a lot And the people who had done series, know, we would sometimes put those in between locations of the main battles and the main events. And so yeah, that was, you know, and it was. It was massive. You know, I feel like I'm a really good editor, except toward the end editing a book. I get so attached. I'm just as bad as the photographer. I get so attached about the photos. I have a hard time letting them go, do. So I kept having to squish it down, you know, make it a little smaller, make it a little, you have to get rid of this, you know? Yeah. So I can do some pretty big books and this is big. It's you know, it kind of, sort of needed to be the next one. Love and War. We had still about the same 90 something photographers, but it was more about like living with war. The war still going on. It was like living with war. And so the kind of the chapters and we had illustrations. We had all kinds of wonderful things to play with. And that was put together a bit more between love or war. And then we started, she wanted to start all the way back to the Crimea. it was kind of historical, more historical at the beginning, showing how this war start in 2022. It's been going on for, you know, decade. So we had the Crimea and I both for both books, you know, in terms I knew a lot of photographers who were working over there, and I would, I would recruit them because not every there was all this amazing work out there and not all of it got submitted. So I would please, please send your photos or I'd see something that somebody in particular had done. And I would say, could we have that story, you know, for like, so in the second book, like Lindsay Idario had done a story for the New York Times and I had worked with her at The Geographic, , she sent in that story that we were able to use in , that book. And yeah. it
Tom: Yep.
Sarah: quite an experience, quite experience. It was the first one, you know, war crimes was very intense, terrible, terrible stuff you have to look at, you know, especially in the bucha, sort of like massacre, you know. so it was in very intense. the third book is with all the Ukrainian photographers through the UAPP, which is a Ukrainian photo organization.
Tom: Hmm. I was just wondering a moment, how many hours of sleep you get in a typical day.
Sarah: I'm a good, I'm, I like to sleep. I don't, I don't do anything at night. You know, I stop, I try not to do anything at night, maybe some emails, but that's it. I'm not working all night long. I mean, I'll work late if we're deadlines, but, I love what I'm doing. You it's, it's so, you know, I love working with photographers. I love working on books. I love that I'm, you know, at my age and this period in my career that I'm like taking on new challenges. Like, I don't know what I'm doing, you know what I I don't know, like, what am I, what about this book? You know? And I'm that challenge, the book challenge is a challenge for me every single time, you know? But I like being challenged, and have to figure it out with a team, with the photographer, with the edit, the publisher, Yeah. And I love seeing books and they give me ideas, you know? That's why I have so many books that, oh wow, that's cool. You know, that would be to think about sometime if it's appropriate for the book. So I'm really And I love teaching. So, you
Tom: I see.
Sarah: I get so much pleasure in seeing somebody else's success. I mean, like, your success is my success, right. so I always used to say with at the Geographic too, when I was the photographer now, okay, I've worked with this person for months, and here's their final the show, and they're gonna show it and they're gonna talk it through. And I feel like, mom, I'm like, mom, and this is my child. And they're in the talent show, and I hope they remember how the dance steps, and I hope they, you know, and you're sitting there like cheering them on kind of inside you. And then they get this, you know, reward, you know, And I get my reward because they you know, we did this together and know. It's like very, very special relationship.
Tom: You have the best job in the world, Sarah.
Sarah: I think I've been very fortunate and for me, the person that I am and the kind of person I am and what I like to do, it is the best job for me. you know, when I was a kid I wanted to be a veterinarian and take care of animals, so I, you know, it's so interesting. I still have animals that I take care of, but you know,
Tom: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What's your secret there? S because. I talked to some photographers and almost all of them, they told me, give Sarah stellar. Hi. Give her greetings. Tell her we miss her. Many. There. You make such an impact. Now, being a mentor, what's your big secret there, Sarah?
Sarah: I don't think it's, I don't think there's a secret, you know, I think the, , I don't know. I think you just have to be a good listener and also figuring out what this person needs to move forward, succeed. You know, some people might need a push, some people need petting, some people need, you know, it's like everybody's different and just sort of understanding like what their goals are. How can I, how can we help you get there? And creating like an environment, you know, that them, know, and them. I mean, we have to have challenges to grow, right? You know, you're working out in the gym. It's you know, always feels good, but that's how you make muscles, you know, so it's kind of like you have to be challenged and, but you also have to be supported and, think that, you know, it's like, so what I was talking about, like the photographer success is my success. Well, in a way that's like selfish, you know? 'cause I get so much pleasure out of doing this and working with people. It's, I don't do it. I wouldn't do it if it wasn't fun for me. Right. And, I just I love seeing that growth. I grow and you know, and if I feel like I've, you know, they feel that way where we work together, then I mean, I, gosh, what better is that? You it's the best gift of all. Yeah, I just, I love that and it's very, you know, 'cause it makes me feel good, not just them, but too, you know? And you know, I made this workshop, this new workshop two years ago. I was doing a lot of teaching at Maine Media up here and also Santa Fe every year. And through COVID, you know, did, we did 'em online. And then I team teach at Eddie Adams workshop and team teach at the Missouri Photo Workshop. But I felt like I wanted to, I took a break for like a year, not, I still did Eddie Adams in Missouri, but I the other two places because I wonder, I'm, I'm pretty much, I'm teaching people about editing, you know, that's
Tom: Mm-hmm. Hmm
Sarah: That's, that's the only thing I'm good at actually anymore. So
Tom: mm.
Sarah: want to, you know, teach them about organizing and editing their work and things about portfolio reviews and pitching and stuff like that. So, I was doing it pretty much the same, , but you know the, two places that I worked at, you know, it's like you just put out your information that you're gonna do this workshop on their websites and then, you know, anybody can kind of apply. I wanted to curate the workshop. You know, I wanted to pick people whose work I was interested in and who I felt like I could help. So, with another woman, Jennifer Fish, who she had been in my workshops before and she and another woman, they said, you should do your own workshop, you know, outside of these organizations. And I thought don't know, maybe, you know, I didn't jump on the idea 'cause I thought well then you have to do all the things about housing and feeding people, et cetera. So there's an Airbnb up the road from me. And I talked to the, I know the woman's neighbor who not here most of the year, but you know about one and looking at it and thought, okay, I could fit like maybe nine people in this you know, but everybody has to share a room. And I, immediately knew I wanted to do just women, you know, and I wanted to create this like house for women and this for women, and not so much that I would teach things any differently. Not really, but just so they would bond. As
Tom: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Sarah: than if they were men 'cause they're all living together. And then I have a friend who does workshop Kerry pays daily up on dam. been doing workshops up here a long time. And I asked her, well, how do you feed people? She doesn't have them live together. But she knew a woman and her husband and he was a chef and she was a sous chef, but she was also editor of a local magazine. so I talked to them. The, and got them to, they'll feed us for a week. They come up here and stay here, you and they'll cook three meals a day, And so the solving those two things made it possible to do it the way I like to do it. Right. And then we just put it out there, you know, and , you have to apply , with like a project, you know?
Tom: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sarah: then Jen and I, and then I had Kathy Moran, who's used to be at the Geographic, who also lives up here. Now then we go through everybody's projects and read about them. And we pick nine people. And then we talk to most, if I don't know them already, of people I know, or they've taken previous workshops, but not all of them. And then I give one international scholarship. To somebody who lives outta the country. So they, all they have to do is get themselves here, you know? And sometimes I give like a half a scholarship. If I could do this for free, I would do it for free. You know, it's just one and it's a beautiful time here. And the women just, oh my gosh. You know, they're all like best friends at the end of the week and you know, they're still on WhatsApp all the time, you know, and WhatsApps and they're on WhatsApping all the time. And we like we're go, I'm arranging a zoom for everybody in January. So I try to, you know, we try to get together and keep in touch and help people and, you know, and, show work that you're doing. And love, it's great. I love it. we'll do our third one this summer if people, you know, but yeah, it's great. It's really fun.
Tom: I was looking for new challenges, Sarah. Yeah.
Sarah: I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I
Tom: But is,
Sarah: while I can, while I'm gonna just keep doing it, you know,
Tom: Mm-hmm. That's amazing.
Sarah: so I,
Tom: So this is, this is one week long, and they will come with their own project
Sarah: yeah.
Tom: because in the Eddie Adams workshop, you will give them an assignment for the weekend
Sarah: have
Tom: different.
Sarah: it's different. And also in Missouri, they have to find a story. Eddie, 'cause it's very short. There's only like a couple days of photography and it's amazing what these students produce in a short amount of time, I'm And then in Missouri, you find a story, you know, it's in a different town in Missouri every year. And you have to go find a story and pitch it. So that's part of the process. The is finding a story and pitching it to your team. And then going and photographing it. And then we edit and put together a slideshow for, you know, myself. It's usually it's an editor and a photographer on the team going to be there for the week. And we each get about eight to 10. Same with Eddie. You get about, you get
Tom: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And have an amazing time because I saw the after pictures,
Sarah: Yes.
Tom: you guys having a very, very good time there also. Yeah.
Sarah: It's a very condensed, very late nights working. , They keep those students busy every minute, you know? 'Cause they have a lot of guest speakers. They have portfolio reviews. This is Eddie Adams. a lot of portfolio reviews on Saturday night and Sunday night. So they stay up late and sometimes we're, we're getting together with them after the portfolio reviews, which we might just, you know, the only time they're available to meet with us is when they should be sleeping practically. So, you know, we'll, we'll have them up till one or two in the morning sometimes, only like four or five days. Four days you can sleep when you go
Tom: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sarah: Yes.
Tom: Last thing, Sarah. If it's maybe, let's say, A photographer comes up, maybe a new photographer comes up who wants to make a new story, or maybe he has already a story and he wants to make a book. What's, what's the first common mistake you see that? That they still have to learn?
Sarah: Mm, good question. Let's see. I think thinking about, well, . So if it's a story they have or something they've done thinking it could be good, but thinking about the market it, right? Have they thought of like, I'm doing this and I think this is, you know, a story that I've been working on and I'm not done yet and I'd like to get some support for it. And I think this is a perfect story for. Smithsonian Magazine, people don't think about that. They're just doing it and they're not thinking about where it could go or I think this would be great for The Guardian, you know, or some other New York Times and this particular section in the New York Times or something. Like, who are you thinking would, or Audubon Magazine, you know what, who is the audience? I think key. And if for editorial , you know, and also a lot of people think, oh, I think this would be great for National Geographic, but National Geographic just did that story three months ago, four months ago. So they haven't done their homework, you know, in terms of where it might go. And so a magazine story doesn't have to be as big. And now if it's a book, it's like, why does it need to be a book? Do you have Here, you know, is this the right time in your career to try to do a book? You know, some people don't do, you know, they work on a project three, four years and then they're ready to do a book. You know, months, you know, it could still be six months. But it's a different kind of a book, smaller book. Also, I don't think they've done some research on what it's gonna take. All the things about doing a book. There's a woman, Mary Virginia Swanson, who you know, I sit her feet and every time she speaks, I learn something. She is amazing. She is the market, everything. She did a book called, I think it's in his third printing about publishing your photo book and it's the Bible. you wanna know about making a book, it's in there, you know, and I have her come as a guest speaker for my workshops, my female perspectives workshop, and she's just a of information on just bookmaking, but. and galleries and all kinds of stuff that the market for photography. So thinking about that and the money, I guess, with books, how are you gonna raise the money? Do you have anybody who's interested in it? Do you know what it's gonna take to raise the money and then distribute and ship and everything? Are you I think there's a lot of that. And you know, if it's something, you know, I think that I like to say, you know,, there's the personal and the universal, the personal is that set of photos that you've just made. You know that whether it's, it's kind of like you were interested in this topic or these people or this landscapes or whatever it is. But how do a, you get me to care about what you care about, And sometimes that's because I can relate. Which is the universal. The universal is where we relate. So if it's about aging, oh, I can relate to aging. My parents were older, I'm getting older. It's a place where, you know, everybody's parents are getting older. You can connect to something. Aging is the big idea. It's the universal and what's the story underneath it? And the story is often the personal, which is not necessarily it's about me, but it's about what I am seeing and interested in and want to show you. And how does it connect up? 'cause the, universal is where you can sell it. You know, that's what the newspapers or the publications are going to be thinking about. You know, is that connection to their audience, finding it. And I think that's really important to be thinking about, you know. But you know, there's exceptions to every single thing I'm saying
Tom: course.
Sarah: And there's exceptions to it. I mean, you could be Vivian Meyer who spent her whole life photographing. She was a nanny in New York City and photographing black and white and never anybody. And now how have been done about her and her work since then? Right. So there's always, you know, for everybody. Like Van Gogh, bought any of you know, most people don't want to be like that. They want to put it you know, while they're alive and can you know, be, you know, enjoy that. But there's so many things, you know, there's a lot you know, books. Books are just one path. Actually. a lot of digital publishing. There's exhibitions, installations, there's tons of ways to be, and most people can't afford to live just editorially. You're gonna have to do something else. You might have to do commercial jobs, you might have to do weddings. You might have to teach, you might, you know, most of it drivers there.
Tom: Be a waiter.
Sarah: What? me? What?
Tom: be a waiter for a time, whatever. Yeah.
Sarah: yeah. I mean, I was a bartender. I was a good bartender.
Tom: You can make cocktails. Sarah,
Sarah: I used to be able to very fast too. Mm-hmm. You know,
Tom: you see I learned everything. I learned something new today about you.
Sarah: but not anymore. Now I'd made a book. Yeah.
Tom: Sarah, is there, is there like a big mistake you ever made in your life but ended up teaching you something very important?
Sarah: Hmm, boy. Oh boy. Oh boy. Hmm. I'd, I'd have to spend a little more time thinking about that. I'm sure there's many, but I was saying about how the know, doing the legislative photography, at first I was like, no, you know, I
Tom: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sarah: I think maybe the lesson for me is often no. Doesn't get me anywhere. You know? No. Is like closing the before or not even is like not opening the door, right? It's like there's back there and you're invited in and you think, no, know, Then it stops, then everything stops saying no. Saying yes is much more interesting life than saying no, you know, saying yes, even if you're not sure. Like my, you know, my first year away from the geographic I tried to, I said yes to a lot, a lot. Anything, anything. I'd say yes because maybe I didn't even wanna do it very much, but I would say yes, because I know that door leads to another door and I for me. Yeah. Yeah. The only problem with yes is if you get, you're too busy, you know, you over commit, right?
Tom: Mm-hmm. Hmm.
Sarah: Right. Which I think can happen to me, but yes. This is just gonna be a much more interesting life than no. And you're gonna learn things and you don't know. I was just at this MFA retreat and in terms of, you know, talking to some of the students and their stuff, I'm, it was interesting how often people would say, no, no, I'm, I, you know, that's not what I'm doing. No. And I'd be like, give it a minute. You know, don't say no just right
Tom: Huh?
Sarah: let that be your default position. know, let you know your default position maybe should be, oh, let me think about that. I'm gonna think that, you know, and, a chance, you know, say yes sometimes, even if you don't think it's the maybe the perfect
Tom: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And write them down on a piece of paper. If not,
Sarah: Thing. Yeah.
Tom: you will have too many commitments.
Sarah: Keep the list.
Tom: Sarah. So I know three cats now. Zuzu buzzer, and a very, very young new addition.
Sarah: Bean.
Tom: Bean.
Sarah: His
Tom: Oh,
Sarah: Bean.
Tom: bean. Who of the three, would you give the role of a creative consultant?
Sarah: Ooh.
Tom: be the better choice? I,
Sarah: Well, Zuzu, she's my girl. very like fussy, you know, and has ideas about her comfort So she would be a good critic, right? best critic. Critical eye buzz is like Mr. Chill. He's like, Mr. Cool. Everything's okay with him. all good, so he is like maybe to be with, not critical if you are looking for kind of feedback. And then
Tom: Huh.
Sarah: you know, he's only six months old and he's just a wild child right now. You know, we're still learning like who is who he's gonna be, you know, but he's pretty chill. But he is like, you know, troublemaker, they're like such troublemakers when they're young, they break things, you know, they're, they're making, they break stuff. My friend said cats or you can have things. So, but yeah, I think zoos are just, 'cause she's pretty discerning, you know? She would be saying,
Tom: Yeah, she would be good.
Sarah: not any good, you know, or You know? Do you
Tom: Sarah, I had,
Sarah: pets?
Tom: yes. I have three little dogs and two cats, so I have a tiny zoo at home. But it all works out fantastically well.
Sarah: I
Tom: Sarah,
Sarah: That's
Tom: I had hope, I had hoped you had, you had zu there on your lap when we do the interview, like a kind of doctor, no.
Sarah: she would, there I'm in a, in a different part and they're in the, they're in the house also. Suzu. Yeah. Suzu would like walk back and forth. She likes to be of attention.
Tom: You see Sarah, and with all of this, I think we are there. I think we had an amazing talk and I have to let you get on with a more pressing matter is putting on the garden gloves and putting those daffodils in the garden
Sarah: that's done.
Tom: I want to see the picture.
Sarah: Yes. I'll send a picture of the gardens.
Tom: Sarah, it's been a pleasure talking to you, getting to know you a bit better, your amazing energy and the smile. Give greetings to your husband, to the three cats, and let's keep in touch.
Sarah: Okay. Thank you so much for having me. It was to speak to you on such a wide range of ideas and topics and really appreciate you taking the time.
Tom: it was amazing. Sarah. Have a nice evening still and we, well, we see each other around.
Sarah: I hope
Tom: I see you.
Sarah: Bye-Bye.