Tom: Oksana, I want to walk a bit into your project, the Summer camp for War Traumatized Children. What place is this? What have the children there been through?
Oksana: Yeah, so this wasn't really my personal project, it's a story that I was assigned to do for the Washington Post with, with a writer, Lizie Johnson. All last year I was actually working on quite a lot of stories of children. And, for me also being a mother, it was just very interesting and something I wanted to explore more. And so this camp brings it's organized by organization called jam Ukrainian brings together. It, we only visited one camp, but they organized a lot of them through years children who experienced some really traumatic events in the war. All of them one parent of both parents. A lot of them, parents, fathers were soldiers, but some of them lost parents in mis drone attacks. There was a boy who lived in occupied territory by Russia, and his mother was raped in front of him and killed as well. And really some, very dramatic stories. It was the little boy who's, they were already displaced, so they moved from some more dangerous part of Ukraine. And then the I think Missile Aone hid the building where they lived, and both of his siblings died. So like the bedroom collapsed and he survived with his parents. So like, all kinds of really difficult stories. And this camp is built around the idea of therapy. You might see it as just a regular summer camp. They go to the swimming pool, they go for hikes, they like play different sports. They have disco parties. But every day in between all of those activities, they have group therapy and they have individual therapy every day. For I don't remember, two or three weeks. So really this camp means, two. is to heal as much as possible traumas of these children, and give them back a little bit of real childhood that they lost because of the war. And yeah, we were there for, for a few days just, following around kids, just, making friends with them, just trying to see what their life is like. And I think, this is actually, like you picked one of the stories that I think is like perfectly what I think is my, I'm like best at 'cause. Not all of the stories you do, you always feel like the most comfortable. But for me, just being someplace, and just, watching and waiting for real moments. And, we could spend, long days there. It wasn't just a few hours, and you could just wait and see and listen and just be there, and they get used to you after some days. And that's why I think it turned out and in, I think it turned out really beautiful. And the story, the way, the writer, Lizzie, she wrote it was amazing. And actually the best part about it was also, sometimes when you take pictures and if you take really good photos that can also determine if it goes on the front page. Not always, but sometimes, they want to put it, and of course it means more visibility for stories from Ukraine. So they actually put this story on the front page on the Independence Day, Ukrainian Independence Day on August 24 and the Washington Post. So I think it was really. Good because then you have more views and more people. And actually the other interesting thing so often when I work on stories for media, I, sometimes you feel like, you went and you did a story and a team of reporters published and then you don't know what, I'm just always so interesting. What does audience thinks? Like what do they feel when they read it? What does it make them feel, think, what does it do? So at least , one of the ways to do it is that I try to read comments under the article. some of them are not real, but a lot of them are real people, commenting. And I think for this story there was so many comments and I think people were just profoundly touched. Especially, after four years of who scale invasion and, many more years of war in Ukraine, people, especially abroad, get really tired of reading about really terrible things. But , story of children is still something it's hard to, just avoid, and I think a lot of people probably who maybe don't, maybe they don't read much about Ukraine anymore, but because it was about children, it made them, rediscover what war is like in some other way. So
Tom: Mm-hmm.
Oksana: yeah. And then actually after I photographed another camp was for the New York Times, slightly similar, different but slightly similar camp and. Yeah, I'm actually, I'm not really doing a project about children, but I'm thinking about it and I think to do a really deep project, 'cause you can follow children growing up in the war, it just requires a lot of time and a lot of, commitment and resources. But like following how, children change through years, like over a long period of time. I don't know if I will succeed in it, I'm just like thinking that it could be really powerful to do something like this.
Tom: there was also, a story inside of, now the name Carillo and Elvira, something like this.
Oksana: Yeah.
Tom: Talk me about this.
Oksana: yeah. First, when we just arrived, of course, there is camp. There was I think 51 children. And, for a writer to do a good story, like she wanted to choose like a main character or something. You have to base your story on something because you can't write about so many children. And so we were just first day sort of meeting different children and listening. And very quickly other people started telling us, we were like asking what kind of interesting connections were made of, tell us about what kids, their stories. But very quickly we learned there is, Elvira and Carillo and they fell in love and there's like a loft story, for, 12 year olds that kind of love story. And so we met them and both of them were really, amazing and open. And so we start just started, we, the story is not just about them, but actually the picture on the front page is them dancing together. the whole story, the way Lizzie wrote it was, how you can find some connection again, even have to experience in really traumatic events. For example, Elvira, she lost both her parents, if I remember correctly, her father was in a border patrol service and was killed. then her mom went to, so they lived in a town close to the border with Ra not too far. And her mom on the eve of Elvira's birthday, went to bite her a cake and was killed in a shelling. So she lost both parents. And Carillo lost his father. So anyway, yeah the way the story was built, of course it talks about all of these really difficult things, but it also shines with this like light of, love and connection and how, children can still be children and, dance for the first time together. So I think it was just, really beautiful. That's why I really,
Tom: it,
Oksana: a lot of good reporters, but, some of them really just write such a beautiful stories. And when you work really well as a team, as a photographer and a writer and a producer, if there is one, it's really, I think then gives stories really powerful.
Tom: was it the moment that surprised you the most? Oksana.
Oksana: You mean about Carillo and Elvira?
Tom: Well, yes. While you were there in the camp.
Oksana: no, I think, no, I think it's like every I remember, every time the camp organizer will tell us some story of a child, I feel like every time you hear a story of a different child and what they went through, it surprises you. So it just, like they, all the stories I heard, most of them stayed in my head, even if we didn't even write about them, I just remember oh, there was this other girl, maybe 10 or 11, and the drone hit at their apartment in Sume, and she was like dragging her brother, I think out of he, some wall or ceiling fell on him and she was trying to rescue him. She was like 10 or 11, just a child. So each of the stories, I think was really striking for me. And of course, yeah, the, that the fact that, Elvira mom was killed when she went to buy her a cake. Just it's just hard to imagine, what. It is for these children to this and all of them still live in Ukraine it's not like the traumas they experience is really profound, but it doesn't just, it didn't go away. It's like they can re-experience other traumas and they live in this stressful environment misled, drawn attacks. Kids go, some kids don't go it depends where you live. Some places you don't have school because it's too dangerous. So kids study online some places, they have to study, but they need to go to a bomb shelter, during the day. All these kids don't have normal, childhoods
Tom: they try to help them in, the camp.
Oksana: Yeah, they mostly, , they did a lot of therapy, so we were not allowed in most of it because, it's a psychologist talking to kids one-on-one. We couldn't be present. was art therapy all kinds of other activities, group plays different scenes. Actually, I have another story about art therapy. They often kids would draw different pictures, and they would talk about some things. And so we were present during one of, they let us just be there. They were drawing pictures. And one boy, he painted a picture of two graves and those two graves and I think clouds, and oh, and he drew like skeleton in a grave. And. He wrote, I think it was in, I think it was dates, date of birth and date of death his father. And then the second grave, he wrote date of birth of himself. So he basically drew a picture of his own grave thinking, that if he dies, he will meet his father in the sky. Or, something symbolically this. And that was like a really crazy moment because I think it's the first time during the entire camp some kids open up much faster about their problems and what they feel. And some kids are very closed and, the therapist, psychologists were telling us this. so I think this boy, he never like really shared much about himself. And it was like in the end of the camp they finally, this crazy picture, you know what's in his head, came out. I think they followed up with him and talked about it and stuff, but it was just also very, there was so many other drawings, of and blood and explosions and you just, it just breaks your heart, to see that it's kids painting this.
Tom: Hmm.
Oksana: But, that's how they process all these events as well. Yeah,
Tom: It helps you oxana when you come back home and you play with Luca.
Oksana: yeah. Actually a lot. I sometimes think, where would I draw my happiness from? If not that's what I was talking about, that even, you live in the times of war and you experience, like many people, a lot of really tragic events. even if it doesn't touch you, you read in the news, it's about your country, it's about people, about your city. But then also some of these moments, when I was Luca and we just, playing, going somewhere, we just, somehow they, they just feel like so amazing. I don't know. I guess just because you you never know what's gonna happen and just just they feel so precious every day. so yeah. And having a child of course is not easy. We sometimes talk with my husband, how, people ask us like, is it difficult to have a child in a country at war or something? And look. We never knew having a child, not in the country at war. So maybe it'll be easy to have a child not at war, or maybe it'll be easier to live in the country at war and not have a child, but we don't know. So we have both. This is our experience, but yeah, just it's, it makes me really happy, but it also makes it more difficult because especially when I work on stories of children, and difficult stories of children. And I did a big project also a big story for Washington Post as well about killed children in the war. So of course, also inevitably in your head, psychologically you project all of this possible things happening to children in Ukraine, to, my own son because we also live in Ukraine. And that makes it incredibly difficult to process it and then just recover psychologically and, move on. So yeah, that is I think really difficult for me. So like on one hand I want to work on, on, on stories about children, and I feel I. Hopefully can do a really good job and bring in my sensitivity for this matter, but at the same time, it makes it quite difficult to then come home and separate, at least a little bit the stories from my life.
Tom: Yeah. I ask you this because Eva, you remember when we talked years ago, you told me that when you came from a difficult assignment, you, I think you took the dog off your parents and you made a walk with a dog to just have an emotional countdown.
Iva: Yeah, I feel that it's important to find time when you have this safe space. Either it is your son, either it is your friend, or even when you are alone. But I think when we experience all this. Very stressful situations and not just situations, but also we experience others, people pain, what just Oksana was describing. It's very important to find some time after that to recover of that because it's difficult to be, to be attached stories you photograph, to the stories you tell to the world because think empathy in photography is very important. And if you try to be called. , Not attached to the subject. Personally, I dunno how to do this because for me, I'm a emotional person and I take the stories of others personally because I just can't. Otherwise, maybe I should, but I can't. And I think we are all humans and some things, same things are important for us and matter for us. And of course when we hear other stories, we take them personally. So that's why it's important to find some time, some way in your like life when you can just about something else. And when you can breathe without all this pain that is around you Especially when we talk about the state of war, which is still happening every day, and we still feel the pressure of this kind of mental health and how we care of ourselves is extremely important. And I think I talk about this so much because I still haven't learned how to process it in the way you should and how to deal with some things. But emotionally, it just, at least what helps me now is to find time to be on my own and to think about something else because there are so many stories. And with the time passing, the stories are even more. And I value every story I make. I feel that this is so important and I'm so grateful that I'm able to do this. But of course. From another end girl. It is difficult and it is painful, but that's the path we chose. And I think of course it'll have sides of something good and of something that hurts you to some extent.
Tom: Yeah. Listening to both of you, I keep coming. Back to one question I have. What does it mean to photograph your own country when it's at war?
Oksana: It's a question that is hard to respond because I don't think we think you know much about it. It's just our life. We, it's not that we can just choose it or something. one thing, but the one thing I can say is to speak about some more practical terms. I think it's a much harder to be, to be a Ukrainian and photograph your country at war, or if you are, in any other countries that is at war because you really cannot just a break. Sometimes, you get recommendations, when you go and oh, some photographers that come from abroad. And I'm not like comparing who does better job. It's really just about the way, you can do it. That you come and then you go home and you take a break and you take some distance and you don't think about it. And I think when you live in this country, you come from assignment, the war doesn't go anywhere. It's still part of you. It it's still there. Your family's every day at risk. Your friends, get mobilized, or joint fighting or get killed like Eva said, her friends. And it's something that is just. 24 7, like you think you can maybe get a little bit distracted, like you can go to the gym or maybe you can watch a movie, but it really fundamentally is always there. And I think that's why it's just I was thinking now that it, and then maybe it's not a good analogy because in the marathon, you know exactly how long you have to run, but it's all Ukrainian photojournalist, we are like running this long distance run that is very difficult, but you don't know when it's gonna end. And so you just, try to endure as long as possible. Emotionally it just, it's yeah. And I just remembered one other person, like an artist he was saying also that on one hand, of course we want to do stories about the war. It's important, but on the other hand, it's not like we can choose to do something else because there is nothing else. There is just war. And you can't really start doing some other art that is not related to the war. You can't really, because none of it makes sense while the war is still happening. So I guess that's what I think.
Iva: I
Tom: It makes me.
Iva: with everything, Ana, what you're saying. And I feel that yeah. When we talk about photography in war. I would say that it's always something different and you, anyway, take it personally. Either you are from this country and you or you are not, because we are all humans and we have something the same. But I think what the biggest difference is what Ana said, that we live through this war, we live our life here, we have friends to worry about. We have dear family to worry about. And that's why it's maybe gives you another level to experience maybe to, you can show it somehow through photography. Maybe not. I still, I'm still figuring this out, but I think that this of living your life through the war is something very unique. And recently I had. A conversation with the Australian filmmaker he was making a movie about Ukraine. And he asked me, we were talking about all this war thing and he said, he told me that Eva, I kept, I keep thinking about this, what you're experiencing. And I keep comparing like people in Ukraine I meet and people in Australia, and this is like such a big difference, which I've never, he was, it was his first time he came to Ukraine and he had these conversations with Ukrainians and he was saying that, talking to you, to Ukrainians, I feel this, maybe I can't say like this, but maybe you have something much more because of this war. Maybe that's why you became much deeper. And this is something very important to get when the war is over. And I understand what he meant, but I didn't agree with him because talking about what we have and what, how it affects us and that we can get anything positive from this war. It's very difficult to talk about any positive sides because how you can talk about positive sides of all the death and tragedy that is happening. And when the war is over and you keep living your normal life, we will never be the same as we were before because we all have lost so much in this world. yes, does it change me? Of course. Do I understand something more? Maybe. I feel that the price we are paying. It is really high, and I think what is left, what we can do is to maybe understand it and to value just the life even more. Sorry, sometimes I get too to, too hard to talk to it.
Tom: I completely understand you, and I was going to ask more questions, but I think, well, a question I want to ask is related to women in photojournalism, because this traditionally has been a very male dominant field. How you experience this today, both of you is this, is there change in this?
Oksana: I think, it was hard for me to to, to get enough confidence and believe in myself, and was not always related to, it be in the male dominated industry, but partially, because when I, when you just start now you're looking for role models, you're trying to find some people, that can support you in this past and somehow the, all the first meetings I had, some of the photo journalists were not very supportive, and I didn't feel like they encouraged me on the belief that I could do it. And I was like, a little bit lost. And then I met my husband and he was actually very supportive. But I also don't like to talk about the fact that my husband helped me so much because then it just also somehow makes me feel like the man has this really important role in my life. but he did, because actually, even though he's also photojournalism somehow, and sometimes people ask us like, do you don't feel like competitive, when we work for the same publications sometimes. But with him it was just never the case. It was never about competition. He just, believed that I was talented and, and now we are basically on equal food. In the very beginning actually what helped me, I was a member of Women Photograph and I won this mentorship program. And I had two mentors and they were just photographer and photo editor like really famous kirsten l was photographer, and Elizabeth Chris, she was photo editor, national Geographic for many years. And that sort of gave me another boost in the industry. And then once I joined women photographs, then I saw how many women photographers there are and what they do. It gives you a lot of power. And of course there's also like a lot of man journalists who also, you know, supportive and great. And just that sometimes you don't really see a clear past. And I think it's also partly for me why it was so difficult not just being a woman, but also being Ukrainian. And I grew up in a very poor family, so even it took me very long to just gain earn enough money to just buy a camera, like I, then I bought a camera and I didn't have a good lamp, so then I was collecting money to buy a lamp.
Tom: Hmm.
Oksana: it was a lot of challenges to overcome, but right now, I don't know yeah, so sometimes you feel like maybe some photographers, some, male photographers maybe get some riskier assignments more on the frontline. But like for me, it's hard to say it's a problem because I never really wanted to be on the very frontline. Like I am scared to go in the most dangerous places. And I think my stronger side and what I'm more interested in is a little bit away from the front line and more about, life of people and more about all of this emotional difficulties. Which is also very traumatic stories just in a different way. and I do sometimes go close to the frontline, but not always. So in anyway, for me, this is hard to compare, that it's because I'm a woman, maybe that I don't get this assignments, but also partly because I just don't feel like that's exactly what I want to do. So maybe Eva has a little bit different perspective on this than me.
Iva: Yeah. I think if we talk about photography as male dominated profession, which still is today, but exactly what Oksana was saying, that I feel that's why I value this support of female photographers, photo journalists so much, and I believe that this is so important. To yeah, to unite with each other, to each other. The women photograph organization helps so much. Oksana was telling about the mentorship and my mentorship when I won this program was Anastasia Taylor Lind. And she's always incredible in the way she feels this justice and how to talk about this. And I feel that she was like giving me always this boost of confidence of me because yeah, I mean that this lack of confidence sometimes makes things more difficult or maybe, I don't know, some kind of, I wouldn't say. Because I'm woman or not maybe, I dunno. But she was always like saying that Eva, you need to su support each other. There is such an incredible circle of female photographers and this is so important to be together. And I had another case, which is too long to talk about and I don't want to about male photographer who kinda was not very nice to me in one situation. And Ana was the one who supported me so much and gave again this kind of example that like Eva, we are together and like we will, we face things together, we overcome it together. And I think that this magic of female support is very important and it just. I think that in general, female energy is strong, and especially when we talk about something that related to us, think that's good to pay attention to at least.
Tom: because I think really, God, that some stories are way better told by women photographers, and I don't mean the picture, I don't mean the technical side, but I think that sometimes when they, it happens, the story. People will open more up to you.
Oksana: Yes I think it's also not just, about women, it's just that in this industry overall, for a long time it was not just male dominated, Western, white, if you will generalize male dominated and I think. And I mostly work in Ukraine, of course, there's a lot of photographers who travel to other countries also. We tell a lot of stories of all kinds of people of different ethnicities, backgrounds, who are re like all kinds of experiences. But if storytellers that tell those stories only have limited experience, then they would be telling the stories in some one-sided way. So the more diversity and the back, like the more storytellers have diversity, women, men from different cultures and countries the worse and profoundly told stories will be. So it's just about how many different voices, the storytellers should be just as many as the people that they tell stories about. Because, it's another conversation about objectivity in journalism, but also I just believe that, there's really no objectivity. You can be fair and truthful, all of our backgrounds, experiences, how we grew up, what we believe in all of this shapes, we report the stories and what, details we pay attention to that someone else wouldn't pay attention to. I think, yeah, it's not just about being a woman or not, it's just about what kind of person you are and just the more diverse person, they will, people, they will be with more diverse, backgrounds. The more profound stories will be
Tom: Yeah.
Oksana: I think.
Tom: Yeah. Very true. Oksana, what exciting news you have or you wanted to talk about? I.
Oksana: it's more just, I don't know if you were, I thought maybe if you will ask, but you didn't ask, so I, maybe I don't need to talk about if you were gonna ask about the future plans. I,
Tom: it, this was my last question, but go ahead.
Oksana: yeah. No, it's just I think for the first time in so many years of being a freelancer, I will have 10 months of stability in my life. I won Neiman Fellowship for journalists and I will be spending 10 months in Harvard University. Boston Cambridge, Massachusetts studying, taking courses and a group of journalists and just thinking about what to do next I did feel like you, I was saying, that she was, while I also don't want to leave Ukraine, but I also felt like I need, it's like really hard to process everything that happens to you and in your work while you're still in Ukraine. And I felt like I really need to be abroad and have this time to just think, read, talk to other people, and just understand what's, what's next and how I can do meaningful work in the future. And so luckily, I. God fellowship. So we will be moving in August to Cambridge, Massachusetts. But yeah it's still confidential. I'm not supposed to share it until they publicly announce it, so I hope this that will run after it. It should be sometime in the middle of my, yeah.
Tom: will make sure, but I'm very excited for you, Oksana, this very good news.
Oksana: Yeah, I'm a little bit scared that I wouldn't be taking pictures for 10 months. I'm like, will I just forget how to hold my camera? But, I profoundly believe, and I was always, there's photographers who, take pictures every day and carry their camera with them all the time. And I was always just a bit less product productive in some ways because I always felt like I need to think a lot and I would like, need to. It took, takes me a long time to just I was always felt like I'm not prepared , so maybe after 10 months of thinking, I will photograph some good pictures. So maybe I will forget about the pictures. We'll see.
Tom: You won't forget, you make amazing work. It'll be always there, Oksana.
Oksana: Thank you.
Iva: Also, I
Tom: And for Eva.
Iva: it's wonderful to have break Oksana, so just congratulations, this is incredible news. I'm really happy for you and I'm sure 100% that it will you huge opportunities in future and for your photography. It'll be like the best.
Oksana: hopefully. Yeah. I also want to take a class on writing, so maybe I can write better texts that goes that go with my picture. Yeah.
Tom: And for Eva Ash, what is holding the future?
Iva: for me, I would say that I want to be as much as possible in Ukraine now because I feel the need to document more. And I also feel that I finally all this years gave me more experience, of course, and all these years gave me a little bit more of confidence and I know better how to navigate with this and how to navigate with my life. I think the fact that I moved to key of. Makes things easier for me because I will be able to go more often and to go for longer time to Eastern Ukraine. And so I just really feel the need to work more on documentary project. On my personal project. I'm still thinking what exactly I want to do because I feel it's very important to, when you think about projects you are doing or you want to do is to understand why you are doing this and to have this deep interest in this and sometimes it just important to. To think before, 'cause sometimes I'm, I was doing like in sake of doing, and now I understand it's important to be more grounded in what I really believe in and what I want to show with my photography. So I try not to push too much on myself, but I am sure that feel this need to make something new, to start something from scratch, probably in Eastern Ukraine, of course, but who knows? Maybe in Kyiv. But yes, I think that I will keep going and keep working in Ukraine and we'll see where it goes next.
Tom: I'm sure it will work out. I have no doubt. But Sana, you see how much that Eva talks because I was really expecting she was going to say, I'm going to do a cooking course and I'm going to make Bost much better next year.
Oksana: Yeah, no, actually the way to learn how to make Borsch better is you need to have a child that really loves Borsch. I only learned how to make Bors when I finally had Luca. And turns out he really loves Borsch. So I had to learn how to make it, now I know.
Tom: Hmm.
Oksana: ' cause I don't actually like to cook. So then don't have choice. Yeah.
Tom: Oksana, what's the most funniest thing that Luca has done that has made you love a lot?
Oksana: Oh my God. I have notes of all the things he says that are really funny. Recently he, wait, let me think. Oh my god, I need to pull out my notes. But one story it's not the funniest. I will try to find the finest. He recently I asked him we were sitting on the couch and I asked him to bring me something, labor. He was like, Luca, can you please bring me something? And he's looked at me and he's what? Don't you have legs? He's three. And I was like, okay, that is very confident. Oh, and then the other day, of course kids shouldn't eat potato chips, but he noticed that we had potato chips. So then he asked for a little bit of potato chips, so on. My husband Brandon gave him a little plate of potato chips and I was like, oh, look at potato chips. What flavor? And he looks at me as if, I was stupid. And he's potato, 'cause like in Ukraine we have all kinds of flavors, like cheese, paprika, like whatever. And he's like potato. Anyway, I have lots of stores in my nose. But yeah, it's fun. It's every day now when he talks, you can you can just enjoy moments.
Tom: Well, I had, I had hoped to see him, but he's maybe already sleeping,
Oksana: i'm not sure he's sleeping. If you really want to see him, I can bring you.
Tom: Go. Go to take Luca, and in the meantime I'm going to ask Eva if you get a cat, what will be the name?
Iva: I think I will not get a cat because I cannot love myself having a cat.
Oksana: For a
Iva: Maybe I will have a dog in the future. I don't know. But I feel I, I can't betray him like Tommy, this is, I'm sick with this, honestly, but it's, oh, hey Luca. He's so sweet.
Tom: There he is. Oh, and Luca speaks English, of course.
Oksana: Yeah. She
Tom: Luca.
Oksana: say hi. Say hi. He's very skeptical.
Tom: You should have given him some potato chips.
Oksana: one New York. He is asking what is he doing? Okay.
Tom: He was half sleeping.
Oksana: no. He is my husband reading him books. he goes to bed really late, unfortunately.
Tom: And he's a good photography model.
Oksana: No, he doesn't like to be photographed really much. And I bought, I was trying to get him interested in photography and I bought him this like really small, very basic like for kids digital camera. And he really wasn't doing much with it until just recently. He, for suddenly he decided he wants to take it and we were like going somewhere and he took it and he was taking pictures of everything outside and of the subway and of people. And I was like, wow. Like suddenly he discovered it and then never took the camera again. It was just the one time. But, we'll see. He's still very small. and he really, likes video. It's every time, he wants to see video, and I'm like, no photo. And he's video. I don't like taking video.
Tom: Art is important. You have to encourage them in whatever way you can. Oksana.
Oksana: yeah, for sure. And I know he, yeah he likes trucks more than an excavator, so his art is gonna evolve around that kind of stuff.
Tom: Mm-hmm.
Oksana: very traditional boy interests.
Tom: Yes. Eva and Osana, thank you both. Really. I'm very grateful we had finally the time we could make it work to sit together. You shared stories with me and I hope really that one day outside of this internet we can catch up in the Ukraine, have a coffee and have another wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for the work you're doing because it really matters.
Iva: Thank you, Tom.
Oksana: and for your interest.
Iva: Yes, it's always great to talk to you, so maybe in few years we'll meet again.
Tom: No, it won't pass many years because I have to try the burst and now I know that Oksana is a master in it. I will make it happen.
Oksana: Yes, a hundred percent.
Iva: Sounds like a plan.
Tom: Okay. I see you girls around. Take very good care of there. Okay, bye.
Oksana: Yeah. Okay. Bye.
Iva: Bye.
