"Joanne Coates: Stories of Life on the Land”

Intro:

Greetings! I hope you all had a marvellous week, shooting some amazing pictures and welcome to another inspiring episode of The Camera Cafe Show, the podcast where we brew up inspiration for your photography journey! I am your host Tom Jacob (audio Rich) with Tetiana Malovana working on the other side of the room, and today we’re happy we could finally find the time after months to sit down with Joanne Coates from the UK, a visual artist and photographer whose journey began in the rural North East of England. Joanne’s upbringing in a working-class farming community profoundly shaped her artistic perspective, driving her to explore themes often overlooked in the art world. Her passion for storytelling and dedication to creating meaningful work have earned her recognition, including the prestigious Jerwood/Photoworks Award and the Vasseur Baltic Artist Award and by this running various exhibitions and being showcased in galleries around the UK. 

Joanne’s photography delves into the intersection of rurality, class, and gender, with projects like Daughters of the Soil and Middle of Somewhere that we will talk about, capturing the hidden histories of working-class women and rural communities. Through her unique approach, Joanne empowers women to tell their own stories, blending photography with sound, video, and installations later to challenge stereotypes and inspire social change.  We will also talk how Joanne holds the honor of being the UK Election Artist for 2024, where she captured the spirit of democracy and their voters through her unique vision.

In this episode, Joanne also opens up about how her neurodivergence—she is diagnosed autistic and having ADHD—has influenced her creative process and storytelling. From the way she connects with her subjects to the unique challenges she faces in the art world, Joanne provides a deeply personal perspective on how her experiences shape her art. Get ready for an unforgettable deep conversation about documentary photography, but also lighthearted about her farming life, how she convinced Rich and I to go see her and learn to milk cows and of course inspiring you to see the world through a different lens! Let’s get rolling 

Tom: Good afternoon, Joanne, there in the UK. How's been your day today?

Joanne: It's been really good, thank you. Nice to see you.

Tom: How's the farm? Any exciting things happened since last time we talked?

Joanne: Well, we've been having some like arts events on the farm, so bringing like rural creatives together to come on the farm, so that was quite exciting.

Tom: Okay. And animal wise?

Joanne: Not really, no.

Tom: No little calves? Nothing?

Joanne: That's coming up so like January.

Rich: Busy time.

Tom: Joanne, let's walk a bit back now when, I don't know when you were 10 or 12 or or 14. When did you first pick up your camera or when did you know that art was going to be your call in life?

Joanne: Oh, it's a really good question. I had access to disposable cameras, but I didn't actually pick up a camera until I was about 16. But I think the arts have always been a key part. So, I always was interested in art. At first I painted, so I really liked painting and drawing.

Tom: And then you went on to study photography, Joanne, right?

Joanne: Yeah, so basically what happened was at about 16. I was really involved in kind of subcultures. So what would be called a Grebo, which is someone who likes like alternative new metal music. That was the nickname for that person who wore really baggy trousers, liked mosh pits, that kind of thing. And I used to borrow my boyfriend's camera at the time, his dad's camera and take pictures of our friends together. So that was like the first time I was really consciously making images of something.

But I still kind of didn't think of it as a possibility for a career. Because I had this kind of connection to the arts, I studied an arts access course, which is where you do your kind of A levels within a year. And it's kind of an alternative to studying A levels, a different form of education. So I did that and I was lucky to have a lecturer who really kind of understood my background and kind of understood maybe like the challenges. And really kind of introduced me to photography as a career, as something that people did, as something that you could study. And that's really when I thought I could go to university, and I could study photography. And then it took a few years of like saving up and then at 20, 21, I went to university and studied photography.

Tom: You touch the moment that backgrounds, Joanne, because you come from a working class family. Has this always shaped your photography journey? Your rural roots, so to speak.

Joanne: Again, it's a good question. I mean, I do think it's shaped who I am. But I think the awareness of that comes from university. And I think that's kind of a part of class and especially in the UK in the 80s, you had to do that. Fletcher saying that kind of like class doesn't exist anymore or Blair saying that class wasn't an issue and what happened is in the UK we've had a real lack of class consciousness. But we still have those backgrounds and actually those backgrounds the statistics around them have been getting worse and the access to the arts have been getting worse.

There was a study that came out this year and there's only 16 percent of people in the whole of the creative industries who are working class and I think at 16, 17, I wouldn't have really known what working class was, and I don't think I'd have been able to identify myself with that or really understood that.

But I feel it was the access to knowledge and theoretical knowledge that helps me identify my class. Also, understanding that getting to university, for most people, that's just something that they do. It's not like a lot of my peers, a lot of my friends weren't going to university, no one had really mentioned it to me growing up. And it was something that other people did, and there wasn't like shame around that. It was just different background from my own.

And I think then even getting to university became this bigger thing and having to save up to go and then going and realizing that's not even like I was already kind of on the steps. Trying to like to pull together for that and thought it was this really big deal. And then you get there, and you realize most people just see it as like a given that they're going to go to get to study. And I think that's when I was like this is really strange and what's going on here. And then talking to my lecturers about that and learning about class and became a real kind of part of my learning. And so yeah, I do think it's always been a part of my identity but consciously I think I only learned about that at maybe like 19, 20.

Rich: When about did you start seeing this in your images, would you say, when was that discovered?

Joanne: I mean, I think in my images it was there pretty much straight away. Because even in the kind of the subculture and those images were on teenager, they weren't my work, so it's slightly different. But I do think class in my work was basically the very first work that I did. And I look back to the first essay I did on my foundation course, and it was about class in photography, and it was about kind of different things and it was about like American Midwest. And so it was always kind of there and the first project I did around Fishermen in the UK and kind of the reasons for doing that and the communities that I was looking at it. It still depends on because you could be a fisherman who owned a really large vessel or you could be a fisherman who owned a small vessel and didn't have access to much. So it was always kind of there from the beginning. So it obviously is that kind of like deep rooted connection.

Tom: And so, the day you came home, and you told your parents, I want to go to photography university, I want to study art. How was the reaction at home?

Joanne: Well. I guess one of the reasons I had to leave home was because I'd finished my GCSEs. I don't know what the equivalent would be in other places, it's end of secondary, end of high school. So you finish and then you decide what you're going to do. And I was like, I really want to study arts. And there was, You know, that you can't do that because that's not a job. So why would you? I think at the time I felt like it was a big criticism and like a difficult thing. But actually, I think there was also a duty of care because they didn't know anyone who did that job. They didn't know that people could do that. For them it was like, If you do that, you'll end up in lots of debt, you weren't ever able to pay it off and you might be in the same position as you were to start with. They want you to be happy. That might not make you happy. So I think that there was that kind of worry around that. Which sounds quite strange because I guess a lot of people might be like aspirational, like go to university, change your background. But I feel like it is. And I think that's kind of part of class as well, because maybe it's the middle class who has the educational aspiration and that's really key to the middle class. In the working class, it's slightly different. But I'm going of course.

Tom: No, it's great when you go of course, because I love to hear you, your explaining, Joanne.

Rich: I suppose it's how you tell your stories about working class people through your eyes and it's about shining a light on that as well, isn't it? And then the beauty about university and education and is what I'm hearing anyway.

Joanne: And I mean, I'm really grateful for, firstly, the tutors that I had understanding the references to give to me and giving me especially the theoretical references. And like you said, I think it gave me that ability to do that. And without the tutors, lecturers who knows what could have happened as well.

Rich: What was your response to your parents when they were a bit sceptical?

Joanne: I think I've always been quite headstrong. And it was kind of complicated because it was a more turbulent home life. So it was a more complicated situation. But then I kind of ended up leaving home so that I could go and study the arts. So for me that was the only real option and because of kind of other things going on at home ended up leaving. And that’s why I kind of left home at quite a young age and then kind of got into. So I guess for me yeah it really helped me also find my place within the world at a time when I was quite out on my own as well.

Tom: Jo, let's talk a bit about projects you did because you did so, so many things. It's difficult for us to pinpoint one and talk about tonight on the podcast. But in the recent years it’s in a order, correct me if I am wrong: Daughters of the soil, Lie of the land, Middle of somewhere, General election artist. And now you're going back to Daughters of the soil, I think for another edition, right?

Joanne: That's amazing, that's well remembered.

Tom: Yes. We're coming back on the election one a bit later, a bit more. This is a bit more fun, maybe a bit more recent. But I think Rich and I, tonight we will talk about Daughters of the Soil, I love the pictures, I love the work. It's an amazing project. You started this together, if I remember well, with somebody in Newcastle University?

Joanne: So there was a call out from Newcastle University and the Maltings, which is an arts organisation in Berwick upon Tweed in the north of England, to do an arts residency. And the themes were gender and agriculture and the kind of conditions where that you would go and make work about gender and agriculture in this place. And I'd applied for that and there was several artists interviewed and I hadn't really had like a big commission like that until then. So that would have been 2019 and then I applied for it and it really gave me the chance to go and put my all into that commission.

Tom: Talk me a bit more in depth, Jo, about the Daughters of the Soil, what you wanted to tell there.

Joanne: I think, when I first heard of that call out and that gender in agriculture and it was kind of because at the time I'd been doing farm labor and agricultural labor. And I'd also been hiding that in terms of my arts practice. Because I did kind of feel a little bit ashamed that I had to do other things and like what did it mean that I wasn't enough money. And like what I did it mean that I had to do these other things to be able to do my practice. So I guess I'd never really talked about it before. But in that interview I just kind of thought right this is the time to talk about it because it shows why I understand subject.

I am not from the farmer in background myself. But I have a partner who is farmer. And I heard spoken his mother, his sister talking about that, about like succession of things. So I talked to them. I think there are so many stereotypes about genre in agriculture, and maybe around gender in agriculture. There is still the idea that the man is farmer. And when I worked with Sally Shorthall, who was the professor University, I got to work with. The was kind of talking about is succession is the man issue. So I kind of wanted to see from this heavy research and all these statistics, but visually, is that what's happening? Is that what's happening in those communities? Can I talk to people directly? How do I make work about that? So that was my starting point for Daughters of the Soil.

Tom: So then you have your project in mind, your starting point, how did you find all these woman?

Joanne: Well, it was quite interesting to set the list. Because I’ve been doing research, I’ve been contacting people. But then, I cannot remember exactly the day but it was March 2020, it was the lockdown announcement from Boris Johnson, who was our Prime Minister at the time. And so basically ended up kind of being like, I can't, it's not safe for me to go and move to this place and do this arts project at a time when COVID was happening. We had lockdowns across the UK. So kind of thinking, how do I continue making this work? So I was doing quizzes with people, talking to them online. And it was actually a really nice start to a project because you would get into know people and talk into them, even though you were distanced. And then what it meant was as soon as it was safe for me to continue on with the project, that the connections with some people were already made. And it, I think it made getting started a lot easier.

Tom: And you think Joanne, coming from more or less the same background, so to speak, made it easier to make a connection with them?

Joanne: I'm not sure. Because so in Northumberland, the farms are slightly different. So even though I would be a farm labourer, maybe have experience milking cows, but a lot of the farms there are more like thousands of acre farms, so maybe it's a slightly different type of farming. And as well, I think farm communities, in general, can be quite wary of a stranger coming in and making work. I think that they might have been still quite wary. But I think it does help being able to say, I milk cows. So  like just it's a natural connection. And kind of puts their mind at ease, but also it means in terms of someone coming onto your farm, they're probably going to be able to move out the way when is needed or have a little bit of sense in that.

And I do think that that helps put people's mind at ease. But I still think they're like who is this person and what do you want and what are you doing? So there's always that element to like explain and to talk through with people.

Rich: Did you find that getting to know people helped with before you even picked up the camera with them as well and then started to introduce the camera?

Joanne: Definitely I think it helps because it just meant they could ask questions. And I could talk about what is the Maltings if they didn't know what the Maltings was. And like who is Sally Shorthall and even like introduce them to Sally's work if they wanted to be introduced. And what kind of happened as well as after talking with them, they would then introduce more women.

So it became 40 women in total, over the kind of entire time I was there. But what kind of happened is it would start with I think it was six and then it just snowballed from there because people would say this person's great, and you should speak to this woman. So I think it helped that way because it was more almost like you had a conversational element at the very start of the work.

Tom: And the places where you took the pictures, Joanne, they, they told you where they wanted to take the picture, or you did a walk with them and you told them maybe it is okay?

Joanne: I really worked kind of together with them and it depends on the person. Because what I was talking to them about, I would record sound with them. And talk to them about what the challenges they face are as a woman farmer. And talk to them because I really wanted to incorporate sound into this project. So I kind of already said to them that it would be part of the work somewhere. Even I didn’t know yet how but yeah. So I have the conversations.

And in the case of Poppy, she was combining harvesting for her father while she was back for summer. And she was at the time training to be a vet. But she was talking about how she was deeply connected to the land in this way that she couldn't explain and how much that we have to care for it and tend to it and look for tomorrow. And that she was quite lucky that her dad had always taught her that because had just been a part of their kind of land education. And because of that, I was kind of saying, Well, it doesn't really make sense then to make a photograph of you in the combine maybe. We can still try, but after what you've said, what you're talking about is this connection to the land and care. And so we were talking about how we would represent that.

And we did, we went on a walk together. But Poppy was like, I would like to kind of be playful with my movements and try this out and so we'll still talk together and I'll still kind of guide her. I think it's important that the people get to kind of feeling easy and kind of pick in. As a photographer, I think you can see a background, or you can see a certain light and I think it's that guiding rather than telling that is key.

Tom: And when the project was finished over Joanne, what you did, so to speak, to celebrate it. You came together with them, you gave them a book?

Joanne: As part of the work, I produced a book that was like easy small print, more affordable. It’s like B size. And basically, had enough printed that I could give one to each of the women as a thank you. And I think it was really important to make sure that they could just have a copy, so that they could see themselves represented and see themselves as important. Because I think that that's something that maybe a lot of them talked about, like they would say, Oh, I just do this. And so they would say, Oh, I just do all the paperwork. I just do the grants. I just do the diversification. And then you'd be like, But hang on, that means that you run the business? You just run the business. It's like an interesting way of thinking about it.

And we had an exhibition and then I invited all the women to the exhibition. So they came and they could have their book there. They didn't have to get their book just there either. But had like food and it meant that they could meet each other and I could kind of introduce them. There was people that I knew would have a lot in common. what was really nice as well is it was the open exhibition. So people were seeing them and they wanted to talk to them about their farming and they wanted to talk about what they did, who might not know as much about farming. So it meant that lots of different people who were from basically area, but they might never have met each other, got to meet and talk and kind of go from there, really.

Tom: You see, it's amazing. It's amazing what you can do with pictures in the end.

Joanne: Hopefully, that is something I've always held on to.

Tom: You think there exists something still like a romanticized view of farming?

Joanne: I definitely think there is still a romanticized view. Because maybe when you look around, someone could look at farming and they could be like, That's a beautiful place. And I don't think there's any kind of like denying that some of the places that people get to farm are beautiful or that you're lucky to get to be outside all the time. But I've got asked before about milking, people have been like, Oh, do you do it on a stool? I can just imagine you like wearing a dress and like milking on a stool. And I'm like, You know, milking it's more familiar to working in a factory than it is. You're really quickly doing things in it and you have to put units on cows. It's very like production focused. And yes, you do need to know about animal care and different things but is quite industrial in the process of it.

And I do think that it's, it's kind of removed in that way and there is a lot of kind of difficult decision making. And I guess there is also a lot of fear around the future of farming and what that means. And there's all these kind of different issues that come with it too and also a changing way of life which is, again, that kind of tensions that I'm always interested in. Because things need to change and they've always need, things do change. But it's also kind of that tension between that and the fear that comes with that. And what that means for the communities around them. And so that's something that I'm really interested in.

Tom: I was just thinking, I know how to take pictures, this you don’t need to show me. But I don’t know how to milk a cow. How hard is this?

Joanne: I don’t think it’s so hard. You have to be clean and you have to fast. The hardest thing probably is putting, washing out the tank and making sure that's fine. And making sure that you don't mess up anything because if you do the whole tank of milk, which would be quite a lot of milk, would have to be thrown away. So that would be the biggest thing that you could do wrong.

Tom: I see Rich on the other side, he's smiling. But I think you also don't know how to milk a cow.

Rich: Definitely not. I've seen them.

Tom: Yes. Let's talk a bit about gear moment. I think when we talked, you took on the topic that you didn't have always access to expensive camera gear. You think in a way this is important not to have access to some kind of gear or it'll just make you just work harder for something you want to achieve.

Joanne: It's a really good question to think about. I mean, I think it can be frustrating to not have access to the equipment. But again, like if you study, what I found with a lot of my peers was they weren't borrowing equipment all the time. Whereas I was like, are you joking me? Like we can, but we can use all this equipment and borrow it. So in a way that made me, and I noticed a few, it made a few others really responsive as well because they wouldn't have access to that. So they really wanted to borrow and try out that equipment. And I don't know what the correlation would be. I don't know. I would have to ask them about their background and go back and revisit that.

But you know, when you finished university, it was frustrating in a way because you wanted to get going and you wanted to be able to do photography work. If you don't have like equipment, can't get going with things. What I'd done while I was at university was save up, because with lenses, depending on what lens you get, but a lot of lenses are cheaper than an entire body. And you can kind of start small and you can go that way. And so I knew I needed to save up for a camera body. And so it was like like six, seven painful moments of not doing any photography and feeling really frustrated. But you could do stuff like you could, go to a charity shop and you could get like a really cheap, or you used to be able to get cheap film cameras, it's quite hard now. And you used to be able to get film from the pound shop. And yes, those are not the images you want to be taking. But if you're obsessed with something and you can't stop doing it, that is a good, a good test for yourself. And it was that I needed to carry on doing that and needed to be connected to things. And it's kind of challenge of that basic access, but I think that is one challenge and it is an economic challenge that I'm guessing quite a few people face. But also can learn from that challenge and you can learn to push what you have and to try what you have.

And I even think with access to film. Film is increasingly really expensive, but I've, I've always used the roll of film sparingly. So I've always been like, I've got three chances to get this portrait and I have to make it work. That made me strict like that.  And so when I used large format camera I didn’t feel different. I will never use six film rolls for one person. Unless you have a job that would pay for that, which is a dream. And I think a lot of people would see that as a dream. And it may be in the commercial industry you would, so it's also a choice of which industry you work in and where you want to work, and what you want to photograph. And there's no shame in the different sectors either, and I think that those are decisions as well.

Rich: So what gear are you using at the moment?

Joanne: I have a Mamiya 7, is really nice. So there's a photographer called Ben Roberts and he was selling it. And before that I'd had a Rolle flex. Basically when I graduated, my granddad did this thing where he said he found it in his loft. So we didn't go to graduation because graduation to go to get to like five people to London on the train to hire the gowns it was such a big thing. So like we graduated in my mum's garden and she just made like a little homemade sign. And then my grandad had said that he'd found this Rollie flex in his loft, which there was never any family photographs. It's obviously he want just to give me and he knew if he'd bought it, I would have said no, because he couldn't really afford that. But it was a really nice thing for someone to do because it's almost like that belief in you.

And then the Mamiya again. And I think this is what's really lovely about photography is you do have these people who just want people to do well. And so I knew Ben's work, I think I talked to him a few times on kind of like Twitter, maybe Instagram. And he said, Look, I'm selling it, I really do want the money for it. But if you want to buy it in instalments like over 10 months, then we can do that because I really want to see it to go to go to a good home for someone who'll use it. And I think something like that meant that then I could buy the Mamiya. And my digital things, I have a Nikon D850 and just various lenses for different jobs.

Tom: You ever use flash Joanne?

Joanne: I do sometimes, if I have to. But I don't dislike it in other people's photographs. I really like it in other people's photographs, but in my own, don't love it. I feel like it almost becomes like not an image that feels very me. And I don't know whether it's because I find it quite intrusive to the situation. So, do have to use it in some situations, but I tend to not use it.

Tom: I was wondering because I think you were a friend with Carolyn Mendelsohn, no?

Joanne: Yeah, she's a wonderful photographer.

Tom: She was talking, and I was thinking about her work that she does with the flash and this Rembrandt kind of look of portraits, which are amazing. You're not sharing the same camera with her. No?

Joanne: No. I mean, her work is absolutely beautiful, and I think is an example of how to use flash in a really lovely way. That would be a really good example. I think it's a lot of the time studio flash. But If anyone wants to see her series, focusing on kind of young women, and I think she's been a guest on this podcast, I'm pretty sure. The fact is she has this beautiful way of connecting with people, and it doesn't look like a harsh flash, it's very soft, it's very studio. So there are different ways of using it, and I think Carolyn's a really good example of that. But I don't know, maybe it's because it's like outside a lot. But then again, like I've seen other photographers work who I've really liked the use of flash. Like Anna Fox is a photographer whose work I really like, and I'm pretty sure they're using flash films. But it's just whenever I've done it, I've just not felt a big connection to the images.

Rich: I was going to say flash not your style. But yeah, I'm similar, doing music photography so I can't use a flash anyway, even if I wanted to.

But just touching on about yourself, what challenges do you face on like a day-to-day basis? Because I know that you've been diagnosed with autism. What is that like for you and your creative process? Is it barrier or do you find it like that's your super strength and that's your power and your energy?

Joanne: Oh, it's a really good question. Sometimes, especially when there's a deadline. So there was a piece of writing that I was doing for a magazine last week, and I'll do almost like obsessive amounts of research. And then when it comes to writing, I can really focus, and it's almost like really deep focus, getting something done, but there are also things that make it challenging.

So say if you're attending a private view or an event, which in photography is a lot of the way how people get to know each other or meet each other, I can't, the sound of that hum of a busy room. So it might be in a café, it might be in a private, like there's all chatting and it's like a hum noise. It can be really challenging just to hear someone else speak, so it means that I can't hear them.

And then also how I process information might be slower. Or I might even sometimes have questions. There might be something even like a podcast I might get quite nervous about doing. Because I'm like what I might misunderstand a question or take it quite literally or so. It almost feels like a communication challenge and there is a lot of kind of masking that. I think that autistic individuals tends to do, not everyone but it kind of depends on that individual and their connection. But I do think that there are real challenges of make things, a kind of struggle sometimes.

But also I think because I was late diagnosed, I had to learn how to deal with things. And it's the most recent work I've made for MIMA, which is the Middlesbrough Institute of Modern Art. It kind of looks at my position as a rural artist and it's through self-portraiture of this farm work and what my position is and also what my position is as a neurodivergent person. And it looks at all those different things and the ways that I release or stim,  is when you move in different kind of ways that helps you. It's almost self soothing behaviour. And so it's the first time I've really explored it and I was playing with flash for a lot of that series as well. So I guess for that series it felt interesting to do it. It's still like a work in progress that I'm playing with, and the portraits that I've liked the most still haven't used flash.

But it's something that I'm constantly thinking about, and sometimes maybe like struggle to articulate it. It's one of those things where I do think there's definitely things that are really, that neurodivergent people have these beautiful things and that you can recognize. But I also think that there are real struggles and it's almost like a disability. And if it wasn't, it wouldn't be disabling, right?

So, there are things, but in the space that I'm in, I think there's still a stigma around saying like, I'm autistic or I have ADHD. Because your value is very based on like the work that you can do in maybe like the Northern English countryside. So you to be your work first, which I don't know whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. And these are things that I'm asking myself and figuring out, so I don't really have the answers for them.

Rich: Interesting to hear and it must be like daily challenges that you overcome and sounds like you know yourself incredibly well. So that's really good. Fantastic.

Joanne: Thank you.

Rich: And you definitely articulate it very well as well.

Joanne: Thanks.

Tom: So Joanne, talking is sometimes a bit difficult for you, to strangers?

Joanne: I mean, I think the one on one talking is always my preferred style or the thing that I find easiest. And I have thought about this. I mean I've photographed people four or five and you know like for commercial where you've had to do group photos. But I find it super challenging and almost like painful. And obviously it's not painful, literally painful but I do find like big groups quite challenging. I'm always thinking, Why is that? Is that to do with that or is that to do with me as a person? So I don't know is the answer. But I think talking one to one or like being around people, I really enjoy. It might just be the kind of slower processing.

Sometimes there’re things if you get really really stressed in a situation, I've learned where you can like tap. So say if you're in a situation and you feel very stressed by it and you might have a panic attack or you might go non verbal but there are kind of breathing techniques you can learn. Things you can do. So it's like bodily tapping. I couldn't remember the name for it. And then you know, there are different things to help you manage.

So I have a support worker who helps me manage my diary and times and fit and things like that. And there's things like time blindness. Sometimes it is really hard to describe these things to people. I think people are becoming aware of neurodivergence more and becoming to accept it more, but I still think there are stigmas around it.

Tom: Your support word is Read?

Joanne: Yeah, Read.

Tom: Then we give a big shout out to Read. Thanks a lot because he's amazing. Answering in the same day already All my questions.

Joanne: Yeah, Read is incredible.

Tom: Joanne, let's go a bit to the Vasseur Baltic Artist Award. I have to read this because it says “In the memory of late Isabel Vasseur, Baltic Award was established to recognize artists deserving of an international platform and offer a step up chance of moment in their careers”. You have now running that your exhibition middle of somewhere, I think until the 17th of November?

Joanne: Yeah, that's correct.

Tom: So how has been all this whole experience?

Joanne: I mean, it's been incredible. So I got to work with a wonderful curator called Naomi. And I do think that you get to work with really shape that journey, whatever that journey is. Sarah Monroe is the director of Baltic and she nominated me for it. And then there's a meeting and the people decide who the award. And even knowing that someone has believed in you that much I think is a massive thing. Because I think self belief is something that I still do struggle with. And sometimes I think crippling self doubt is a friend of the artist, sometimes I think it's not. But I think it makes you carry on because you always have that like doubt, so it makes you like continuously work, which could be an issue, who knows.

But something like that, someone saying like, I believe in you! And I think that you go out there and making this body of work about something that you care, about for a reason and all these other things. But having that thought behind you is an incredible thing for you, to go out and make work and to be able to make work. That might be quite challenging or stressful, but to be given that chance I think is incredible.

Tom: I was also thinking you refer mostly to yourself as a visual artist more than a photographer Joanne.

Joanne: So again it's something that I think about quite a lot. But I think increasingly because I use these things like installation or sound or video. And sometimes I'm looking at writing. Sometimes I'm looking at, and I it just gives me the freedom. But everything I do revolves around photography. So photography is always the core and photography is always the key of everything I do. So photography is always kind of in the middle, but I think increasingly other things is. And I think as a visual artist, it gives you the freedom to do that and to be seen in different ways. Whereas photographer, you're kind of wrongly put in a box in a certain way. And I like the freedom, but you are still a photographer.

But I would say just the way that I'm working and maybe the mediums that I'm working on or the way that I'm showing my work or the places, maybe like visual artists is a way of understanding and people connecting and also being open to what that work is. So that they're not going in this space with this preconceived notion necessarily. Whereas I think as soon as they hear the word photography, they have like a very set notion. So I kind of like to play with that a little bit.

Tom: Joanne because for all the listeners, it's been months since we told, Yes, I want to come on the show. Just let me find a date. And it's been very difficult because you're always so very, very busy . So how you manage it. I think your fiance is running the farm. You are helping on another farm, you are doing your photo works, and I don't know what else you're doing all in between. How you manage your life, Joanne?

Joanne: Sometimes I ask myself this question. I think a key thing to think is I have a support worker who does help me. So I have seven hours a week where someone is helping me and that's incredible. I think like being on a farm, you do have to help. There's no free ride. You're always going to be needed to go and block the road, make sure the cows don't get out. Or there'll be times when you need to feed the cows or look after them or just check them. And again, that's just part of your life. And then farm labouring, like milking cows. I would say it depends. So what I really like about that as a job is that you can work four hours a week, or you could do 30 hours depending on photography.

So you basically, with your freelance career, what might happen is you might have a really good month, you're going to run a lot. And then the next month you might earn like nothing. So that in turn basically shapes how much I milk and it's called relief milking.

Even just managing photography I think this for every photographer is almost like a pie chart. You're doing different things as a photographer, different projects, managing that anyway. And I think I do have to be super organized. I think for me, there's like a spreadsheet and it's like which exhibitions are coming up. When are they coming up? What am I working on? Is there a gap? I have, like what can I be doing in that? Is it personal work?

And I also think like making sure that you do still have time for your practice. So that might sound strange because you might be doing personal projects, but they might be commissioned work or it might be a commissioned visual arts project. But I think making time for you to play and practice still is really important. So even if you can find an hour or two do that, that is part of your work. And there's also the admin side of being a photographer, the less kind of interesting side maybe that everyone has to do.

I think like visual arts photography is the only thing I can do. You might say, Well, you can do farming. But I think that is my entire being, that telling those stories. And I think especially around class and social change, that is the purpose of my life. Even though it sounds really cheesy. But that makes me want to do it every day, or be able to wake up and do it every day. And want to be obsessive about it, and even if I say to myself, Oh, I'm gonna have a day off, I end up doing some kind of research about it. And so it just becomes part of it. And I think in some ways that's why, like, farming and the arts are quite similar, they are lifestyles as well as a profession. And you have to have this obsessiveness with either of them to be able to do the hours and to be able to do the odd times and to be to put everything into it.

Tom: And what was this, you mentioned in the beginning, you had some artists coming over to the farm?

Joanne: Accessing rural space in the UK can be quite daunting for people. If they're from a city they might never have been to the countryside and not everywhere has a right of way, so that's a big challenge. In Scotland the land is open access so people can walk wherever they want. In England it's not so people do feel sometimes like where am I allowed to walk, where am I allowed to go. But also growing up in this area I knew that I never had the chance to be connected to the arts and I didn't have the chance to be connected to any artists. And I think like how would it have shaped things to be able to earlier on be able to connect to the arts.

So I set up this, it's a strand of my practice. I haven't set it up like as an official kind of company or anything. But it's called Roover Arts. And basically it's this kind of events that I can do on the farm and different things that we can do on the farm to bring people together. So what we did on them, we did a kind of a weekend of events. One was like a community barn dance and line dancing and getting people involved and asking what their hopes and dreams were for the future. And also kind of introducing them to the arts. And then on the other day it was for 10 artists. Some of them were photographers, some weren't photographers. Bring them together, walk together. Think of the issues they face and kind of turn that into what would your dreams be in this situation? Eat together and just be together and this kind of a different way of networking than this thing that a lot of people might find difficult. And I don't know if it's because of my background, but a lot of the people who came were neurodivergent and what they said that is actually connecting in this space where they could walk, it's not a busy room, it's a slightly different thing really worked for them. So over the next year, I'm hoping to do more events and kind of combine what is my life is like farming and arts and combine that and make it accessible for other people.

But also for people who were like, not just young people, but I think there was definitely for me is like I felt I had to leave to be able to be this artist. But actually, I'm making work about this rural place and people might want to leave. So I think it's kind of creating a space for different people and thinking of how to do that. And thinking of how I'm going to find the time to do it. But that's something that I'll think about another stage.

Tom: Joanne, and why you didn't invite us? We would have loved to come.

Rich: Absolutely. Sign us up.

Joanne: Yeah, you should come, I will invite you next time.

Tom: You see, we can milk cows and we can set up a dark room.

Rich: Thank you.

Tom: We can do everything.

Joanne: Well, I'd love to set up a darkroom here. So if anyone listening, I know how to do that. Technically I have stuff, but we just don't have a building for it. So, that's just a challenge, and you overcome challenges. So hopefully that's something we'll overcome and there might even be a dark room one day.

Tom: Sounds amazing. Let's walk a bit back to the official election artist for the 2024 general election in the UK. How came that to be, Joanne? Where they got your name from?

Joanne: Well, I'm still asking myself. So apparently somebody somewhere nominates you so it's quite cloak and dagger. Because I asked, I was I was quite interested who nominated me and it's anonymous. So they don't tell you who nominates you which is like it's quite interesting. Because you want to know and I think there's a set amount of artists nominated. And then I think it's about 12 that are interviewed. And so there's a group of artists who are interviewed. You have to come with a presentation, so you have to have an idea of what you would do.

I knew about the role of a lecture artist. I knew some of the previous election artists work, like Adam Dant. So I think it's a lithograph, or it was, it's some kind of print, but almost like a Hogarthian, like this kind of satirical on politics. Really interesting work. Simon Roberts, who's a photographer, had been the election artist in 2010. And so, I knew about the role and I knew about different works of the election artists. But I didn't like really know about the process of it. So the next thing was this interview that you had to come and present.

And so I did a presentation about the rural vote and how I thought that was going to be really interesting in this election. And I also said decentralized places. So in London, you could have a decentralized place, like these kinds of places that are more maybe caught off or underfunded, or I thought it'd be really interesting to look at those places. So I might as well go with something that I'm really interested in. And then at least if they say, no, I've got something that I actually want to do anyway, so I could go do it anyway.

Then it was a few days after the interview, called and they said, We'd like to offer you the position. And then I think two days after that. Rishi Sunak, who was the prime minister, called the election. So when we were interviewing, they were kind of talking like it would be September. So you would have lots of time to plan and get ready. But it was like two days to get ready. So you had to move all your work, get your milking shifts covered and get ready to go. So that was too much of an amazing opportunity for me to say no. And the fact that again that they'd seen that the kind of potential of the rural vote and those different voices and I'm the only person of election artists to be not from London or the southeast of England and you know not be based there and not be connected to that kind of arts industry in that way. And I think again like It made me think I've got to do this and I've really got to do a good job.

Tom: And organizing wise, Joanne, how you manage all this? I mean, in two days, you drove all around the country by car?

Joanne: So I drove, I can't remember the exact amount now. It's over like 7, 000 miles. Luckily in my presentation, again, that kind of obsessiveness came in. So like in my presentation, I'd already listed, constituencies. I think there was at least 25, these would be really interesting. So I wasn't going from like zero. So I'd already done quite a lot of research for that presentation. And so I can already talk about constituencies, like what the kind of key issues were in those constituencies, what I wanted to look at, why I thought that this vote was interesting and why I thought it was the UK was in a really interesting time politically. And I think if you see what's happened, the rural vote has kind of really come into play, especially in the past of few weeks looking at politics in the UK. And I think it's just of being in that space and being aware of those things. I had to go and what would happen is I had to be quite responsive.

So I'd be driving somewhere, I would be contacting people and I would be photographing them. And then I might get back quite late. And then I'd have to do some research. And this is where like Read came in really helpfully as well. So Read would be emailing people as well, but a lot of the time because it was politicians, they wanted you to email them.

So it was just kind of juggling. So it was these really long days be driving. And getting this short amount of sleep and getting ready to go. But it was almost you couldn't stop cause you would get tired. So you just had to carry on with the train of it. And I do think in that situation, that my ability to work under really like stressful pressure maybe comes in well.

Rich: Fantastic. How long are the days, are we talking from start to finish?

Joanne: Usually at 6am you would be up and ready to go. So you might have done a bit of research before that and be ready to travel because you really wanted to get somewhere for at least half eight, nine. At the start of it, it was a bit trickier because you were really trying to plan it in. As soon as you had your plans a bit more concrete, you could work it out a bit more and be like, Wait, where do I need to travel to? How do I need to get there? But even then you had to be flexible.

So I was in Devon and there was one party that I hadn't covered yet. I think it was six and a half hours away. And they were, Okay, so we have today where we want you to come. And cause you have to cover every part. I'm going to have to go, even though this doesn't really make sense with my plans, I'm going to have to adapt and be flexible. And being in my car helped with that, because you could put on the radio, listen and go. But you had to just be really on it the whole time. And it was definitely challenging. But I feel like a once in a lifetime experience.

Rich: That's it. Sounds amazing experience.

Tom: So hearing you, I think you're going to have more as once one in a lifetime experiences. You have some goals over the next year that you want to achieve, Joanne?

Joanne: I guess. I'm working up in Scotland at the moment in the Highlands. So there's a gallery museum up there called Timespan. This is a theme that they've set about the gutting girls. But I'm really interested in how that ties to the clearances and how that ties to land ownership now and how that tied together and what is the contemporary version of that. So Scotland, a lot of the land has been brought up and it's similar. So it's these different experiences, but how does that relate to women's working class experience? Does it, does it not? And making that work with that community. And I think that is quite challenging, again, but it's quite important work to be making.

So, making that work there and being really present in the moment and being able to make work with a new community. So that's a definite goal and vision. So that'll be a new body of work. But it almost relates really closely to The Lie of the Land, The Daughters of the Soil. And I think that's why they invited me to go and make the work. That's a really nice one.

And there's a gallery called Farley's, which Lee Miller's granddaughter runs and they've invited me to come and show The Daughters of the Soil. So again, that's a really nice. I dunno if you know as well, Lee Miller did used to have the dairy farm, which is something that I never realized until Amy, her granddaughter had said. And then they were saying about doing workshops. I said, it'd be really nice to look at that or incorporate it in somehow. And they were like, Well, you do know it's still have cows and sheep here. It's still like a working space. I was like, No, I didn't! So that's quite interesting. And that kind of connection. And if anyone wants to look up Lee Miller's photographs of dairy cows and the farming, that's quite interesting as well. So Lee Miller was a photographer. There's a film out at the moment called Lee. She was Man Ray's muse, but also a photographer and artist in her own right as well.

Rich: I saw it recently. It was incredible. Absolutely loved it.

Joanne: I still need to see it, I live too far away from a cinema, that's the annoying thing. But I want to see it, I'm going to see it soon.

Rich: It's well worth it for sure. Iconic images, just what she did and with her camera and like take one shot, move on one shot. Just blows my mind what she created and did. Yeah. Fantastic.

Joanne: I think she seemed to have that connection, visually and I think used Roliflex, is that right?

Rich: Yeah. She did. It was incredible.

Joanne: But I mean, anyone who's not familiar with her work, I would definitely recommend looking up.

Tom: It sounds very interesting, Joanne, maybe for a podcast with you next year about this.

Joanne: Yeah, definitely. I'd love to talk to you guys again.

Tom: If you could do a collaboration with any artist, let's say in the present or in the past, who would it be, Joanne?

Joanne: Any artist? It's a hard question. It's a really good one. There's so many that I would like to. But I think Tarkovsky's the one, but that's like one of my favourites. But I don't think he would be the best to do a collaboration with. Well he might be because he would have worked with a crew of people, so he's probably used to different people. But I feel like he would have his vision and be the director, so that might be more challenging in terms of a collaboration.

But I think with Tish Murpher, who was a photographer, who was based in the northeast of England, and made work about working class life. If I could meet Tish and say to her, Let's go and make work about class now in the country in 2025. And that would be absolutely incredible. And again if anyone doesn't know Tish Murphy's work, it's just this incredible work from a lived experience point of view about working class communities at a time when like youth and employment was at its highest and just an incredible photography.

Tom: Joanne, where is your happy place?

Joanne: I think on the fells. So a fell is a like northern English dialect for a hill, so there's a hill upwards from the farm, it's called River Crag. I think that that is definitely my happy place to go with my border colleague, Len.

Tom: Without the camera or with the camera?

Joanne: I usually take my camera. I don't really do much with those pictures, but yeah, I usually take my camera.

Tom: It's amazing reach. I always ask this question and it's hard for photographers to let their camera down. They always, whatever they do, they always have to have the camera on by their side.

Cooking skills, Joanne, you have any good cooking skills?

Joanne: The mediocre at that.

Tom: You're the one that likes to eat, but doesn't like to cook. Okay.

Joanne: Well, I think I do, it's joint cooking, but it's like fast is good.

Tom: Or your fiancee is a good cook.

Joanne: Not really.

Tom: Also not. I'm just visualizing the workshops. We are going to do the milking cows, the dark room and the culinary project.

Joanne: I need to learn to make cheese. That'd be the next thing, wouldn't it?

Tom: That would be amazing.

Rich: Yeah.

Tom: Joanne, thanks a lot for interview. It's been really a very, very nice talk. Thanks a lot for having us. Have a great evening still and we'll be in touch.

Joanne: Thanks so much for having me and it's really nice to talk to you both. And yeah, I definitely think you both made me feel at ease, so it was really easy to talk to you both. So thanks.

Rich: Bye.

Tom: Then we see you around Joanne. Bye.

Joanne: Bye.

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Outro:

What an incredible conversation with Joanne Coates! In this episode, we explored her journey from a rural working-class upbringing to becoming a celebrated visual artist. Joanne’s dedication to telling the stories of rural communities and working-class women through her photography is nothing short of inspiring. She remind us that behind every landscape and every face lies a story waiting to be told. 

We also heard how documentary photography can be a powerful tool for change. Joanne’s work challenges stereotypes, highlights hidden histories, and empowers the voices of those often overlooked. By collaborating with her subjects and allowing them to shape their narratives, Joanne shows us how art can foster connection, spark dialogue, and even shift perspectives on important social issues. Her belief in the transformative power of storytelling is a reminder that photography can go beyond aesthetics—it can create real impact in people’s lives. 

If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to follow The Camera Cafe Show and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Join us next time for more inspiring stories from the world of photography. Until then, keep exploring, creating, and sharing your vision with the world!