Greetings and welcome back to the show!
It turns out that for some retiring from being an art teacher can be a dangerous thing.
You open a few forgotten boxes of photographs, open a few dusty boxes of negatives, and somehow end up starting an entirely new adventure in life.
I am Tom Jacob and this is The Camera Café Show.
Today, I continue my wonderful conversation with photographer Meryl Meisler. Best known for her street photography and photographs of New York's disco era, Meryl spent more than three decades teaching art while quietly building an extraordinary archive of images that remained largely unseen by the world.
In this second part of our conversation, we leave the dance floors of Studio 54 behind and enter a completely different chapter of her life. We talk about teaching for more than thirty years, balancing creativity with everyday responsibilities, dealing with rejection, and the unexpected journey that began after retirement when old negatives started finding their way into books, exhibitions, and galleries around the world.
Along the way, we talk about things such as New York hotdogs, good friendships, hitting the clubs again, and everything else that happens to pop into her mind—which, as you'll hear, is never a boring place to visit.
So grab a coffee, settle in, and enjoy Part 2 of my wonderful conversation with the amazing Meryl Meisler.
Tom: Let's go a moment back to teaching Meryl. You teached for 30 years, something like this?
Meryl: 31 years.
Tom: Okay
Meryl: 31 years. And more, 'cause after retiring from full-time teaching in the public schools I was part-time teaching at NYU for future art teachers. So I taught 36 years.
Tom: Long time, haha. What's, Meryl, what's the biggest change you noticed in young people from then until you retired?
Meryl: I think kids are kids. Kids are kids no matter what era. There's something similar about being an adolescent. The world that they were living in changed. Being in New York City, 9/11 changed all of us.
Tom: Yes
Meryl: The attacks of September 11th changed New York City forever. Society changed in the fact that I could be a teacher and be in a school even before it would be I was in a progressive school where we had a coming out day and people talked about... that every teacher wore a pink triangle, and we could talk openly about who we were and who we lived with or not lived with. So society changes for the better. The invention of computers and cell phones and social media, that's changed people's childhoods. And they were a reflection of what's popular in popular culture. I witnessed the coming of the hip hop. And you, you know what the new trends are. You know what's in style. And then children are of course, unfortunately also affected by the ills of society.
Tom: True.
Meryl: A crack epidemic or affected by poverty. Those things still go on. But children's barrage by media is tough. Even when I was teaching in my last few years, it's "Put away your phone," because all of a sudden phones were allowed in school, because parents were worried about their kids. There were phones everywhere. Or I was teaching digital art. I had to like, "Yep, focus on the school." There's more distractions.
Tom: Your students, Meryl, they knew you were into photography or you kept this for yourself?
Meryl: No, I think, yeah, you keep your work for yourself. The nightlife work I did not show for decades later. I did, throughout my teaching career, not only did I show work with the students and I got my students work in Biennial, in the New Museum. I was an award-winning teacher. But that was also my superpower because I'm not a big person. Classroom management is not my gift, like cooking is not my gift. Throughout my teaching career, I showed students my work in terms, it could have been my drawings, my paintings. My illustrations were being published in newspapers and books. I would show that because I could show them my superpower, something I could teach them to do. Most of the art teachers are artists, so I always shared notices about exhibits I was in, showing what I was working on, showing printed pieces of work in, say, the magazines or books and teaching them how to draw and perspective. And then when we had a photography program. I had a darkroom program.
Tom: Ok.
Meryl: So I was always showing work. Did I show things that would then and now I would not...A teacher has to be professional. No, I would never... even now, I would never show children photographs of adult material. I still separate that even though I'm long retired. Like when I published these four books that I've done, I wouldn't even put a picture of children next to someone using drugs or being sexually explicit. I don't think it's appropriate, and I still have that mindset, and I always will have that. It's my training and I separate that.
Tom: Yes, I understand.
Meryl: My mind goes "That's an inappropriate thing." I'm still that person. And you have a private life, but I also think it's kids and you're influencing them. And even in the '90s, I wanted to work with my students about health, promote using art to learn about health, and we even had to prevent AIDS. I got certified to talk about it because that's what you do. But that's what I... that's part of your profession. You wanna know how to speak, What you say to kids matters. What you say to anyone matters, but especially children, and they're not your children... so that's part of my ethics
Tom: I know, Meryl, you would be my favorite teacher. I studied art school for six years, and my art teacher was by far my most favorite person. She was a bit like you, I think
Meryl: Thank you. Thank you. I feel being an art teacher is lucky. Most people like that. Whereas some people like gym, but yes it's a creative outlet. It's certainly a creative outlet and it could be used. ... I worked in programs where art was used to help literacy, -- And later on, I liked to collaborate with my other colleagues to do science with art, like language with art. If that makes sense.
Tom: Yeah, makes sense.
One thing about when you were a teacher, that I couldn't get the full story, Meryl, was something you were selected for an exhibition in the New York subway, as a finalist, and it didn't come through, and it make you feel very sad?
Meryl: Thank you. I don't know what you... you did your homework. When in 2000, I was already, it... No, 19, I don't know, around 1996 or '97, I'd had a public artwork in Grand Central through the Metropolitan Transit Authority, and it went very well. And then the MTA, Metropolitan Transit Authority, they actually asked me to be one of, I think it was like four or five people to submit, do very heavy research to submit for a permanent artwork in the station out in Brooklyn, and I worked so hard on that. I knocked myself out, and kept my job during the day of course. And when the email came that I was not the chosen project, and this would've been like your several hundred thousand dollar permanent artwork, it would be amazing. I wasn't chosen. Thank goodness it was a, it was between classes, 'cause I literally got down on the floor and sobbed. I don't take rejection well, and I was like, "Oh, if I didn't have to work full-time, maybe I would've had more time to have done even more on the proposal." I wasn't selected, but I did at the time feel like it's also because I have a full-time job."
Tom: Yeah.
Meryl: You don't stop your job because you have a deadline for a proposal. You just sleep less. But I did cry. Heavy.
Tom: But then, Meryl, fast-forward to 2014, because you lived all this parallel life being a teacher and having all this amazing photo archive sitting around. What made you decide that you said, it's time to put this out in the world, your first book, "A Tale of Two Cities"?
Meryl: All right. I retired from teaching in 2010. I had always... okay, backtrack to 1978, '77 when I said I went to that Copacabana first disco night by myself. At that time, I was taking a class with this guy, Bob Edelman, how to publish a photo book, how to do your own photo book. He chose me to develop a proposal to have a book published of my Long Island photographs that he was gonna be the publisher for a story. In short, it was not to be. He did not accept it at the end because it was because something between him and the writer he set me up. And I was like, I shut down. I didn't try again.
Before I retired in 2010, in 2007, I had received an email from stranger, someone named Adam Schwartz, a teacher in Bushwick, who wanted to submit a proposal to the Brooklyn Historical Society about the changes in Bushwick, which is the neighborhood I taught for 14 years. And a colleague had told him about my work because he had trouble finding photographs in that period. So we put a show together. I realized I had this unusual body of work that I thought was beautiful, and I wanted to continue digging into it, showing it, printing it, getting it out there. And when I was retired, it's "This is my time."
Tom: Finally!
Meryl: And Bushwick, the neighborhood, started becoming not just build out, but a hot neighborhood for artists. I had a show where I collaborated with a young writer named Vanessa Martir, who found herself in one of the photographs, and we showed together. It's... I can go on and on, so you have to stop me!
In a place called The Living Gallery, a new gallery that was for under-shown, under-known people, at that gallery, a Frenchman shows up with curly hair, and he says, "I just bought a building. I'm a filmmaker, and I bought a building in here" He was researching just being curious because that's who he is, reaching to learn about the neighborhood. He found my pictures, and he wanted to see them. And he loved my work. I said, "Oh, thank you." The next year we have another show with this Living Gallery, and take a break and go to a place called Bizarre that opened up. It was actually a drag burlesque house in Bushwick, which was shocking because when I taught in Bushwick, it felt very homophobic to me. And we walk into this place, 'cause they serve lunch during the day. We took a break, and the same French guy's at the door. He said, "Oh, welcome. This is my place." His name is Jean Stephane Sauveur, it's the middle of something called Bushwick Open Studios, which at the time was like a grand festival, like a Mardi Gras. And he said, you know, this is my place. Come downstairs, we're gonna make a gallery. We wanna show people like you." I go downstairs in this called black box, and he had photographs on the wall of his work, 'cause he's a filmmaker, and these were stills from his film. And I said, "Oh, great," how is it going showing your work here?" He says, well, it is a bar. People do get drunk, so they take the work off the wall or break it." I was like, "Oh, great." We go upstairs to have lunch, and I'm talking to Vanessa, and I said, "That's great. I had shown my own work and my student work -- I'd gotten into the Brooklyn Museum, different group shows in Grand Central, I've had shows in real galleries, real museums. And I said, "That's great. Here I am in this drag burlesque bar in Bushwick with a gallery in the basement where people steal the work off the wall, wants to show my work." She looks at me, she goes, "Don't be such a snob." And I say "Okay." Haha.
Then I come back a few weeks later, and I visit the space 'cause there is a party launching a book of a French photographer that Jean Stephane Sauveur, the owner of Bizarre is promoting. And I'm like, "Wow, this is interesting." It's like the place is packed, and like a small version of the discos I went to in my youth. There's a show downstairs. I go into the bathroom to fix my lipstick, and there's a disco ball. There's a disco ball out there, and I had like eureka, aha moment. It's like worlds came together. Bushwick has now become the nightlife center. We couldn't have predicted this. And I went up to John and I said, "How's it going with the exhibiting downstairs? With the problems with the staff?" He said, "Oh, we figured it out. We bolt the work to the brick walls." So I was like "Are you still interested in showing my work?" 'Cause I knew the living gallery was changing their format. They wouldn't be able to have four-month shows. And he says, "Absolutely, yes, it's history." So I said, wait, 'cause I had this idea that this is the perfect place that I knew I had, not just Bushwick work, but this nightlife work, and this is the perfect place to show it.
And I come back at a weeks later because he had a business partner, Greg, and I wanted to make sure it wasn't just a thrill of the night, that he was just busy, that, you real-- are you interested in showing my work here?" "Absolutely, yes. You know it's important. It's history." And I went "Great. I'm gonna have a show there next year in the basement." He didn't know I had this secret plan to show my nightlife work as well. And then he calls me in, we're talking about made this decision in September, October, there'd be a show in June. This is September of 2013, and there'll be a show in June 2014. And then around January, I'm just going through work. I was, looking for stuff, printing things, scanning. And he calls me in the middle of a snowstorm to come meet with him, go to some nightlife awards event. He says- I wanna publish a book. "A book?" Yeah. "You mean a catalog," because here we are in January might even have been February, and we're talking about June. "You mean a catalog." And he takes a hard book and he goes shows me a photo book he's been looking at and goes, "A book." I was like, "Oh, interesting." He didn't know that I had been showing my Bushwick work and getting a lot of press about it. And I actually had submitted it to some real publishers to do a book about my Bushwick in the '80s, and I was still waiting to hear from them.
And I said "I don't want to just show my Bushwick work here. I wanna show my nightlife work, too. It's a long story, but it goes together." He said, "Nightlife?" I said, "Yeah, I was in the discos a lot, and I had photographed it." He said, "Really?" He said, "Can I see them?" I said I have to find them and scan them to show you 'cause I've never shown them to anyone." I was quickly picking up my pages and my negative pages and thinking, "That's a match with that's a match with that." And I scanned some, emailed him 'cause he was working on a film project in South America, and he says, "I got it." He like, he understood. And then we started playing with it, the idea of this and that. And I was like, okay, this guy, I thought this guy's crazy. He can't do anything that fast. My wife, Patricia, she's a designer for television. She'll design the book. We'll go through the motions. Just do it.
Tom: Amazing, haha.
Meryl: And doing them both at once. But we did it. Vanessa Martir wrote an essay. I wrote an essay. A friend of mine, Catherine Park- Kirkpatrick, part of professional woman photographers, wrote an essay. A poet I met through Vanessa, Emmanuel Xavier, who grew up in Bushwick, submitted some poems, put the work together and I communicated back and forth about this and making decisions. It came out in June, 1,500 copies, and went viral. So that's how it happened. And then-- it paid for itself back. Bizarre very generously laid out the money for having it printed in China. And without having a distributor, we were selling out the book, and it paid for itself. So he says, "Let's do another one." And we did one a year later. And I said, I exactly know what I wanna do. I wanna do this book." It was really the book that was rejected in '77
Tom: Right.
Meryl: The one I was upset about. My Long Island pictures, but I had the idea of contrasting it with moving to the city, the two things together. And again, that was a huge hit. And again, the distributors turned us down, and it didn't matter. It still sold. And then the third book, there was a stall in between. There was a tragedy in my family, and things were changing. But then I got my third book called Purgatory and Paradise Lost. I wanted to go do so much from this era that I hadn't shown yet.
There was so much from this period, that deserved to be published. And when I went into the school, and some of the nightlife work that I was, like, scared to show. And at the time Bizarre was closing. He was closing it to focus on his own Hollywood film that he was working on. I had applied for a grant for some place called the Leonian Foundation, and they gave me a grant. This third book, even though, John said I just can't do it, I have to focus on my film." I was like, "Okay." I did it on my own. I was gonna publish it no matter what. I got the grant. But then during the pandemic, John did help me edit that book, even though he wasn't a part of it anymore, because he's a great person and a great friend and believed in my work. And we would lay it out with our masks, in the backyard, lay it out and go... We'd make decisions and go, if it made us laugh, we understood each other and I learned so much from editing. If you wanna learn about editing, learn it from a film editor. Oh, boy. And that book sold out as well. And the fourth book was done with Eyeshot Italy, it's called Streetwalker, and it has street photography from different areas I've been in. But they also chose to include work, some of, I was surprised, from my nightlife work and some family photographs.
Tom: Beautiful.
Meryl: And so four of my books sold out. And I know many people are stuck with boxes and boxes of books, so I'm very glad 'cause I'm ready to do a fourth
Tom: You're ready to do your fifth book now
Meryl: Fifth, yes. I want five books. I want more than that, but yeah, more than five!
Tom: Looking forward to it Meryl.
Meryl: Publishing a book was really, it made a big difference in my life. It also helps you understand, it helps you package your work.
Tom: Yes.
Meryl: Having a show does that as well. It's more than nice. It's divine. Yeah
Tom: Meryl, let me ask you a moment about your photographic eye. I talked a time ago with Harvey Stein, you will meet up with him soon. And just as his pictures, your pictures aren't always candid. You want to have this human connection always in your pictures. What's something that makes you stop and think, "I want to photograph this person or this scene"?
Meryl: Okay. What makes me want to take a photograph? Okay. I am interested in human beings. That is true. Still lifes are landscapes are like, human beings are really fascinating. I photograph things that, I say, personal things of people in my lives and events that I'm going to. I photograph things that either I've never seen anything like it before in my life. It's this is just amazes me. I've never seen this." If it's a stranger, I might even say, "I never seen," literally, "I've never seen this happen." I photograph things that looks so typical. In the United States there's an artist called Norman Rockwell who painted Americana, like real Americana scenes. It's almost like an Americana scene come to life. Let's pick something like The Pieta. Like you see, you're just like, "Oh, this is like The Pieta." And they go-- It just, it looks so typical that you feel like you're seeing iconic work in real life. Or I photograph people, things that it literally makes me laugh seeing it happen. Like, it makes me smile when I see it. I'm also attracted to people expressing pure joy and exuberance. I shy away in sad situations. I want to be present. Doesn't mean I've never done that, but I want to be present, and I don't tend to photograph people who are down and out, 'cause I feel a little funny about it. I'm not expressing that it's wrong for somebody to do that at all. But I like people to... and as I say, it doesn't mean I've never, but I tend to like people to be able to say yes. Not that they're unconscious. I do have some photographs of people down, but not too many.
Tom: And you go out, Meryl, specifically to shoot pictures or you just, as you say, you shoot pictures wherever you are going?
Meryl: I used to say that I don't go to photograph, I photograph where I'm going. I still photograph where I'm going or special things, but now when I'm shooting nightlife, because I'm decided to go back to it, I'm going with the intention of photographing nightlife. When I was a younger person, I was dancing at the same time and socializing more. Now I'm going with the purpose of doing that.
Tom: With a medium format camera.
Meryl: I'm going back crazy with my medium format camera and flash and film, which is a little nutty. And to me the clubs seem darker than when I was younger, but again, it could be my eyes. And you have to stop and you have to slow down, you have to change the film and it takes forever to develop the film. But I want to show what's changed.
Tom: Yes.
Meryl: Or what stayed the same, looking through the same lens. I've come to appreciate the aesthetics of the work I printed back. And as artists you think you always have to be changing. Maybe I don't have to change. Maybe I can go back. It's like there's no one hard rule. And does it mean I'm gonna do this forever? No, but I do have seven bodies of this on my camera at this point. 'Cause I like it, and I've come to a new philosophy about photography, is that just for the fact you enjoy doing it is reason enough to doing it. You don't need, you don't need permission from somebody else, unless you need permission to go into the private venue, which I do now. I enjoy doing this. That's reason enough. So it's easy to be insecure, right? No one likes rejection, but I don't sob anymore. That was a big one. That was a sob. Not disappointed, but yes, I get rejected, but I do get acceptances as well, and are even better.
Tom: Of course.
Meryl: To all artists out there, keep, just keep doing it. Keep doing it
Tom: And why not go out with your Adventurer camera?
Meryl: I don't go out with it. I did try it again a couple years ago, but it's in my home on a revered place. It's right in a special place, and it reminds me what it was always about. Photography's an adventure for me.
Tom: Nice.
Meryl: Art's an adventure. No matter
Tom: Yeah
Meryl: I love exhibiting work, being there in person, having physical objects that are framed or however you present them, and thematic and curated. I'm gonna be in an opening this Saturday -- I just came from Dublin, right? This street photography festival and Des and Paul who run it are just amazing. They did a fantastic job curating, installing the work, and the experience of meeting people in person and talking, and them reacting and you talking, seeing each other's work. I love that. I love exhibiting.
This night I'm gonna be in a show that opens at the Center of Photography Woodstock up here in Kingston. It's a biennial of upstate photographers, and it's the first time since I started uncovering my work, since retirement, when I'm starting to show work that's never been seen, this is the first show since 2009 that I'm showing only new work. That's thrilling for me. And that's exciting. I feel "Ooh!" And I and it'll be fantastic 'cause it's not my solo show. I'll have a significant amount of work and the work is printed in my dark room here, and iI'm presenting it in a forum and friends, family and strangers. In Dublin, 12 of my family member and family and close friends came over. We had an entourage and exciting.
Tom: How nice.
And teaching is exciting, Meryl, because when we are recording this now, I think in two weeks, you have the Pavement Symposium in New York about street photography.
Meryl: You get an A+. Yes, you get an A+. I just, I don't teach much because I do-- like when people ask me to, but it's I've been there, done that. People have asked to study with me before, but I have to say "No, I can't, like I'm gonna focus." But this definitely appeals to me because, there's street walking in taking a group through Bushwick. The people in the Pavement Festival are people I know. If I know them, I respect them. If I don't know them, I know of them. And I like David Farmer, who's running it, a really nice guy. Let's see how it's gonna happen. But I've especially liked teaching situations where I've had the opportunity to travel, like on that show in Berlin the gallery Photo Gallery, Friedrichshain got a grant from the German government to bring me over, and I taught high school students there street photography. It's like even better.
Tom: Of course, haha.
Meryl: I'd like to go to Spain. Yes, I'd love to go.
Tom: I was thinking we need to find a gallery here in Barcelona
Meryl: I would love that. I'd love that.
Tom: Let's see if we can make it work.
Meryl: I'll chill with you. I would love that. Thanks.
Tom: To end our nice talk,
Meryl: Yes
Tom: where can I find the best hot dog in New York?
Meryl: no, that's...haha...I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do an ad for anyone. Nathan's is famous, and going to Coney Island is good. Yeah.
Tom: Ok, haha.
Meryl: But I don't know. Because of the atmosphere.
Tom: I thought you had a favorite place
Meryl: I'll barbecue you a hot dog. How's that?
Tom: That sounds great.
Meryl: The best hot dog is about the atmosphere, the atmosphere of having it is good. But I like 'em grilled. Yeah. Being outside in the backyard or being in a beachy atmosphere, that's fun.
Tom: I look forward to that. And you will sing a bit, Meryl? Because I read you like to sing also sometimes.
Meryl: Oh, I sing very poorly, but I love to sing. Okay. I'm one of those rare people who actually can't sing a tune, but I love to sing and I like to go to piano bars. Yeah!
Tom: Okay. We will make it work in my visit to New York
Meryl: Okay. I look forward to it
Tom: Meryl, I think this was an amazing talk. Thank you for bringing your little world to me today, for spending time. I feel we need to put on a disco track now and have a Guinness together.
Meryl: Oh, okay. Okay. That sounds good to me. In Ireland is better than anywhere else, right?
Tom: Meryl, keep in touch with me, and we see each other soon around, okay?
Meryl: Okay, yes. Thank you. Have a lovely evening. Hasta la vista!
And that’s a wrap for my conversation with Meryl Meisler folks. I hope you enjoyed our talk about street photography and everything in between.
Talking to Meryl, I kept reminding myself that we should never throw our pictures away. Because sometimes a box of old negatives, or files on your computer, isn't the end of a journey at all—it's just waiting patiently for the right moment to begin again.
What I love the most is that while all of this was happening around her, she was simply living her life. Being an amazing teacher for more than thirty years, making friends, photographing the people around her, and never chasing recognition for its own sake. And then one day, the world finally caught up with the work she had been making all along.
If you enjoyed this two-part conversation with Meryl, be sure to check out her website and try to go see one of her exhibitions. As always, all the links are in the show notes.
And of course folks, if you enjoyed this episode, have a look at our website and don’t forget to subscribe, leave us a review, and follow us on any podcast platform or on YouTube.
Until next time, keep shooting and keep on moving your photography. I see you next week here for another wonderful conversation about photography and life… Adios.
