Tom: Some photographers, they chase moments. Other photographers, they want to try to understand the world underneath it. My guest today has just exactly done that through wars, collapsing systems, long journeys from Afghanistan to Somalia, to energy poverty, migration all across Africa, and he calls himself above all, first a journalist. Pascal, nice to have you on the show today.
Pascal: It's my pleasure. Thank you
Tom: Pascal, before we dive off into the wider world, where you live in France somewhere today?
Pascal: I live in Paris, but I grew up in a very remote place called Le Berry. You don't know, huh?
Tom: I don't know.
Pascal: it's a place where I really love it. It's in the center of France, in the middle of France. And I grew up and I stayed there until... It's a countryside place, and I stayed
Tom: Great but nowadays Paris is still the city, of amour like in the '60s or it changed?
Pascal: I don't think so. In Paris, it start to be rough. Living in Paris, the people are tough. I feel it, it is not-- is romantic for the foreigner, I am not sure. Living in Paris, you have to fight all the time, and the people are not very Yeah, it's rough, I feel. But I like it and in France for my job, you have no other option to live, in Paris. You should live in Paris.
Tom: Of course. Yeah, of course.
Pascal: Paris, unfortunately. Everything is concentrate in Paris.
Tom: But it doesn't have wine. We are having wine for our drink or water?
Pascal: I have water. You, have wine?
Tom: No Bordeaux wine today sadly. So, Pascal, you spent all your life traveling to very far remote places. What's one small thing that now makes you happy at home?
Pascal: I have what I like. I like read, I like eat simple thing. I am look documentary. I am very quite a simple guy
Tom: And your suitcase, because ton valise, after decades traveling airports, long journeys, checkpoints, your suitcase is very organized or it is chaos when you make it?
Pascal: No, I have a s- I have special suitcase for traveling. It's one whom I don't use only when I travel. mean
Pascal: in I have everything in double. Like this, w- I just change, of course, it depend of the climate where I go, And I can adjust. But mostly I have my suitcase for traveling where everything is in. When I come back, I clean everything, close the suitcase, and then I can leave very easy to another trip. And it's the same for my gear. I have a bag, everything is in. Not too much, so it's cooler. Not too much material. I
Tom: Perfect
Pascal: Two I use, and two lens, three lens. That's it. Me, I shoot in Canon and yeah, I like it. It's ve- now we are lucky because camera are so good and so easy to use. I used to shoot thousand, hundred thousand slide. And slide, it was very precise. The young generation don't know how it's easy to work now. You can work 20,000 ISO. You can do anything you want. It's, terrific. It's fantastic
Pascal: I will never regret
Tom: I was not the-- I was not going to ask about gear, but this slides you were shooting with Kodachrome 64, Pascal?
Pascal: I, the different, I like also the Kodachrome 200 wh- was very good because s- this film have a very short contrast, contrast. And like in Africa, you have sometimes light are very harsh. It-- And I use the three, 25 ISO, 64 and 200. Yeah.
Tom: most, photographers , from this era I talk about, they are not very fond of, Kodachrome because it's a very finicky film A very difficult film
Pascal: Oh,
Tom: to expose right
Pascal: Our... And you are... But he's a good school when you know to expose Kodachrome, you c- you have never any technical problem after. Yeah. Because he's very... you c- you cannot change. Ektachrome or Fu- you can push, you can change the sensibility. Kodachrome, no. It's fixed. Yeah, you have to be very concentrate. But it, was a beautiful film, yeah.
Tom: Can it be, Pascal that, you only changed in 2008 to, digital?
Pascal: Yeah, absolutely.
Tom: no?
Pascal: No, it's very late. It was the end of Kodachrome. in 2008. for me, it was-- I was quite worried about going to digital because I get quite a lot of work because I knew very well how to handle the slide and all the color of the slide. I knew perfectly the film. I knew in which condition what I can get with the film, and suddenly finished. And it's for a painter, you will say, "Oh, you will not get this blue. You will not get the anymore. It's finished." And I was quite worried, but finally the change was quite easy Yeah. It was a big gap, huh, a guy like me, huh, who... And it's funny because now many people want go back to analog And I just regret one thing because when you s- read some article about this, never ask people like me who have done of analog. They're always new people. I-- And I, understand if, I was a new young guy, I would like to see what is analog, w-what was. But they never ask us who have used a lot if we will go back to analog or not. It's interesting. And yeah. deeply, this is not important. The only thing is important is what you put. You can register maybe in a wood, a piece of paper. It's not a problem. Is it film? It can be... What is important is what you will put in your picture. When you have this
Tom: Of course
Pascal: You are easy to switch. Just you have to handle the technology, but after it is you who drives the picture, who put what you want in. Voilà
Tom: is why you are here tonight.
Pascal: Yeah
Tom: let's walk a bit, let's walk a bit back. So you grew up in this small town in France, Buchon said. What is the thing you most vividly remember or what kind of boy were you when you were small?
Pascal: Ah, I would... you know what? Like many people who come from a very remote place, you want to see the world. You want to escape From the place. I come from a very simple and rural family. My father, grandfather was blacksmith, and my other grandfather was a small farmer. It's mean I grew up with going to the farm work with my father to the blacksmiths. We go to poach at night some fish. And I grew up in very, I would say, very village place, very village life. And yeah, I think I was curious. This is one of the key. If you want do this job, you have to be curious. And I think I was very curious. Yeah, And I want see the world. At 18, I went alone three months in India travel all around India, and I start to make slide. I it was my pleasure, and I love taking picture. Finally, it was very easy because I, did what I like I can make my job. It was easy.
Pascal: I have no
Tom: It
Pascal: I make a
Tom: Yes
Pascal: University of psychology, but I never finish. I switch to photography. It was really the thing what I would love to do. And finally, I make it
Tom: Be-be-because where you get the camera from? When it started?
Pascal: When I was student I, have a job who call, I don't know in English. I, have to take care about other student in
Tom: Okay. Yeah
Pascal: okay? And I w- I was paid for that. And w- in France we say surveillant in a lycée college and when you do that, you are paid also during the summer holidays without work because you are like a teacher. It's the same rule. And with this money, I start to travel. This is how I make a trip first in India. After I make a trip in Peru, Bolivia, and after in, I make a trip in Afghanistan. And w- when I come back, I have slide, I make a small conference. Sh- I show my picture, my slide. finally, one day a ladies who take care of gypsies saw my conference and she say, "Ah, listen, I have an, a big association who take care of gypsies. I would love if you can make a documentary for, me. I will not pay you, but I will buy you some picture." And I did this during one year. Is, it is how I stop the university. And during one year, I take picture about gypsies. And after make my military service in Paris in the photography, department of army and y-
Pascal: at this time you have to do one year military service. You have to. I did that, and after I stay in Paris. And in '79, I was hired by a weekly magazine. It's called Jeune Afrique.
Tom: Correct.
Pascal: a weekly magazine who is specialized about Africa. And there was a chance to be salary by the magazine, and the magazine start to send me in Africa. It is how I start to know Africa. I was quite lucky. It was not too difficult. I do that three years and after I join the staff of Gamma, who was a big
Pascal: at this time. I was staff Gamma and yeah it's how it's work. And I,
Tom: You keep, on saying, Pascal it's, not difficult, but you started in an era, no internet, no phones, no GPS.
Pascal: Yeah
Tom: really has to shape you as a photojournalist, eh, in that time?
Pascal: yeah. And you have to be you have if-- To be photojournalist, you have, first you have to be very curious. think you have to like the people. You have to have a lot of energy. Never resign. And always do, go and do, and be interesting about the geopolitic. Yeah Yeah. W-when you have done is look is not too difficult, but it's a long process, I would say. It's step by step by step And the world and the people interest me a lot. Yeah.
Tom: But then, of course it's not only shooting pictures because then you start to work for agencies and there is a lot more things that you have to learn when you work for agencies Because they always don't need a story when you want to make it
Pascal: Yeah he's uh I have a chance. Okay, when I was in the weekly magazine, I learned journalism because I was part of a magazine. It's mean I went to the conference. I can see how it's work, what can be a good story, not good story. I re-really work my part. We say in photojournalist you have two name. You have photo and journalist. And I would say I will learn my journalist part in the weekly magazine, And after when I get to Gamma, it was big agency, very professional. It's mean you have to be-- You learn also how to make a story. You have editor-in-chief, and I make news at this time. They send you I went in Lebanon during the war. I never been in Lebanon. The morning call me, "You go there." And you learn a lot of thing. You learn to be very professional. At this time there were quite money and many magazine, big magazine, give money to the agency, like Time or Newsweek. And when you go for the agency and directly for the magazine what gives the money, you cannot fail. have to bring
Tom: 嗯。
Pascal: And y- you don't have to think too much. You have to do it. it's good school. School are very strict, very very professional one. Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting.
Tom: we have to start the exciting part now, Pascal, because now I have three or four projects in mind. Let's see how far we get. First, let's do Afghanistan because it's the longest away. 1975, something like this, you went to Afghanistan
Pascal: 1976. But
Tom: to go there and how, you got there?
Pascal: I, it was-- I, went by plane. I, make a trip in Asia. I went during this trip, I went in Thailand, Burma and India and Afghanistan. I make a trip. I and it was a time where we spoke a lot about Afghanistan because there were a lot of EP who makes the road from Europe to Afghanistan. And and we start to see some picture. There were a couple of French people, Les Michaud, we call s- Roland Sabrina M- Sabrina Michaud, who make a lot of story about Afghanistan, and we can see the, picture was printed in National Geographic, Geo, and you can see how this country was crazy. And I was there a short time, 10 days, not too long. But I really start to work in Afghanistan in 1985 when I was in Gamma, and it was during the Russian invasion. And at this time it was quite difficult because we w- we have to go to Pakistan and after to walk. At this time I walk 1,500 kilometer, go and back. It's a lot. And we walk at night because there were a lot of spy And we wear African clothes, bir. We don't talk because of course we don't know the language. For the people don't discover there were some foreigner. the time when you can take the picture was very short. It was quite frustrate because you cannot openly take picture any time. Because at this time the Russian say if they get some foreign journalist, we will-- they will not try. We will kill them. Don't-- You have to really take care. But it was very interesting because you go with a group of mujahideen, and you live with these people. Say you work one thousand five hundred with the same group. And it, it's very interesting because it get you a chance to have in some intimacy to see, and the people forget you also. It was interesting, yeah. And after I went many time. I went in '92 when Kabul collapsed. About Kabul for Geo. I went in '96, where I think I was one of the last to shoot the Buddha of Bamiyan. I went in '96 when the Taliban take Kabul. at this time I make a large trip all over the region for French Geo. I spent two months. I went in different part. I went quite many... And the last time I went in Afghanistan it was in 2022. It's not too far, when the Taliban come back.
Tom: Pascal, you feel every time that the country changes emotionally when you go back?
Pascal: Yes, there is some time was very rough. The, at the time I feel was very sad and rough. It was after the 11 of September when American and all the different country went in. You have maybe 25 different armies there, and you feel the Afghan was not anymore in their own country, and they were very sad. It was quite terrible. And the last time I went there in, I think 2022, it was interesting because it was the first time Taliban went back, and it was the first time in 40 years there were peace. And you can travel everywhere. There were not war. And even the Afghan, it's difficult to say when when you are n- not familiar with Afghanistan, but you can travel everywhere. Even the population can go everywhere. And you can see in, at this time in the hospital, there were a lot of people from the countryside who before cannot come to take medicine, the, because it was too dangerous. And it was interesting, this trip. Now it's more difficult for press. Now they are, they start to be very restricted again. And now the, very tough side of Taliban have take the power. And this is why for the woman, it's more difficult for everything.
Tom: You just went in a good time period there in t- 2022, because I think it changed a lot after
Pascal: yeah, it changed a lot and, what I heard, because I was not back, is very difficult for journalists to work now. Again, they start the stupid law where you cannot shoot any human or any
Tom: Living.
Pascal: But it was like this also in '96, '98, '99. It was already like this, you have always some guy from the ministry of information who look what you are shooting. It was very difficult at this time also. And I think I am maybe on the few guy who have shoot from '85 until 2022. But I like the country. I like the people. It's a strong country, strong geography. Very welcome people. Is of course, very difficult for the ladies, for the women. The condition are terrible. But globally, people are, really very nice. Y- when you are a stranger, they really take care of you. And it's also a trip of another world, another century when you travel in Afghanistan. And it not too dangerous. Y- you can see there were not too many hostage. You were not not too many journalists was killed in Afghanistan. It's happened, of course but, not too many. W- can work. It was not too rough compared If you make comparison with other countries
Tom: You know what it remind me now, Pascal, when you say you grow a beard and you walk on foot? I think Steve McCurry, he did the same, but I think he go before you to, to... Ever meet up with him there? You ever saw him?
Pascal: Not I I saw him in Afghanistan. We are good friends with him, Steve, but he went before me, I think two years before, I think two or three years. I think he went in '81 or something. Me, I went in '85. But I met him in in '92 and also in 2006 in, Kabul. He was working in Azari story in 2006. Yeah. When-- yeah. But Steve, I don't think he went back from few years now. He don't went back from the Taliban recover.
Tom: You also have a picture from, how it's called, Ahmad Shah Massoud, th-this Lion of Panjshir,
Pascal: yeah, I s- I, meet him twice. time in '92 and in '98. And I was lucky because I can spend three weeks with him every days. Because at this time it was quite difficult to join him because he, was really in a small, maybe 5% of Afghanistan he control. He was really surrounded by Taliban everywhere. And for get to him, you have to first fly to Tajikistan and wait until an helicopter will go to him to carry maybe money, carry g- gun. And, after, when you have the chance to arrive at the place where he was, you can stay with him. And it was, quite easy. And I was lucky because there were Polish guy Tajikistan, in Dushanbe, who go to see Massoud for buy emerald, stone. And like they want is, there was a dealer for the emerald of Panjshir. Massoud send an helicopter for them, and we take the chance
Pascal: with them. you need luck sometime.
Tom: Yeah. He made an impression on you, Pascal?
Pascal: Oh, yeah. It was it was very, of course, charismatic, but also quite simple. Very simple. easy. He take care of you. He was very simple. It was easy going. Of course, he have a very big charismatic, but he was very respectable of you, of the people. And he was a very strong strategic guy. And what
Pascal: me funny, what-- Because we, fly many time in helicopter because like he have different point he control, but cannot go by road because in the middle there were Taliban and we have to go in helicopter. And at this time, he make a hampon. What is in English hampon? Like a chair between the two pilot he was sit there. And he ask the pilot to go down in the river. He was looking all the geography for the future And he was always looking, ask come back, ask if to see if there is a path through this river. It was very interesting to see. When you sp- when you have the chance maybe I spent two weeks, I don't remember exactly, every day with a guy like this is cool because you really see, um, how he's living how is his strategy. One day he say, "You cannot come in the helicopter , But take the second helicopter because , I have some Iranian people who want to, come and I don't want them know there were some foreigner." And it's interesting. You there, you see how he prepare attack, how he how he have to take care about all the logistic. He was even the people come and they have no any more shoes, some soldier. He make a, note "Please go to take a sh- some shoes." Like it, he was taking care of everything. was e- Yeah, when you have time is fantastic when you are a reporter because unfortunately now there are not much money and magazine don't send very long, long Time with the people. And when you have time, you can go to the, to more deep in the thing. And you can explain how it's complex. It's never black and white. And when you have no time, you go directly to show the basics thing. And when you have a lot of time, you can make all the details, the thing to make everything can be more easy to understand it
Tom: Yeah, of course. Yeah
Pascal: voilà
Tom: Voilà. Next one, Pascal. Somalia. Now, when I talked to Chris Jones, he told me that he asked you "Pascal, are you sure you want to go to Somalia?" Because this was-- You wanted to make a story not long after Black Hawk Down
Pascal: Yes and,
Tom: You, what you remember about preparing this, trip?
Pascal: Yeah. Okay. I, went, I think in 2002 for German Geo to do a portrait of Mogadishu. And at this time, Mogadishu, it was really terrible. I think it was really one of the most dangerous place, to be frank. need to have escort, need to have take care of everything, never say what you will do. It was really tricky. I went also in 2006 after, and at this time, the Islamists take the power. It was what we call Tribunal Islamic. it was also very tricky. And but I have a lot of contact, like I spent time. The key of our work is the fixer. If fixer, what is what facilitator, is the guy who can take care about your security, your translation, your knowledge he, who can arrange and help you. And I, I knew two, three fixer who I start to be good friend, and this is why when I spoke with Chris, I ... Before I have check with the fixer what we can do, how we can do, how we can manage. And I have an idea how to prepare the story and what we can do. And this is how I propose to Chris. But i- it's really tricky. And during this trip, some guy organized for take us ... I was with a writer, Robert Drapin, who is a writer f- for National Geographic and also for New York Time Magazine. And we
Pascal: and they prepare, an attack for take us in hostage And at this time, I was a very close friend with the fixer. He tell me, "I will not go today I have some friend who's close to the to the s-Islamist, and where we go, I would like to show if can help us and send us another protection, another escort." And finally, the day we should go, he cannot make it. We postpone for two days, and when we arrive at one point they prepare to take us in hostage, the other group of escort from Islamist join us, and they cannot take us because we have we, don't-- They were not fighting because we were too many people. Maybe w-we have two car with maybe seven guy with gun and two other group arrive. We were maybe 20, 25 gunmen. But unfortunately, behind us in another car with a smaller escort, there were two young journalist one Canadian, Amanda Lindhout, and one Australian photographer. And final-finally, they take them in hostage. Like they cannot take us, they take them in hostage. And they stay 16 month hostage. It was really terrible. And Somalia is really tricky. You really have to not make mistake at all. But I did it. We did it, the story, and I get the magazine award in America for this story. I make three trip this year in Somalia. But you need to know to understand the country, Because what is important, especially when you are in very dangerous place you have to know what is going on to decide do, I not do and to trust some people, and you, are really in alert all the time. And with the information, you can decide. If you are blind, you see nothing
Tom: Because as a photojournalist, Pascal, there
Pascal: Yeah
Tom: suppose you, you do your preparation very good before you go, but this can change 100% once you are there because maybe you can only go to one place you want to shoot one time
Pascal: Yeah. And one I don't know if it was the time I go for National Geographic. Yes. One of the trip, the fixer called me, "You-- ha-have you received my my message?" I said, "No." He say, "I send you a message for tell you, 'Don't come.'" And I say, "No, I was in the plane." And he say, "The problem American with a drone kill the military chief of Shabaab, Al-Shabaab this night. You will be only the only foreigner in the city. And this is very dangerous." I tell him, "What we what we do?" He say, "Okay, stay." I stay in the hotel where there were a bodyguard. I will go to see the Shabaab people because of course, all these people, w-we always think y-you are bad, you are Shabaab, or you are that family connection. All these things are mixed. And he say, "I know some guy who was in power, Shabaab power. I will ask them." He went and they say, "Okay, listen. During one week, we will not make any trouble because we are in the mourning, But after one week, you have to take care." And the second thing they said, "Don't go where there is many people because cannot control everyone." And we work, but very carefully, of course. don't did what we have planned, but we do-- we did some different thing. And one day, I find a guy who was filming me And okay, we catch the guy and we ask him, "Okay, what?" Oh, he say, "I was surprised they were for nothing." The day after, second guy, and this time I say, "I left I have to leave." And yeah, you are ready to to adapt. A story you adapt always because it's never work when you want. Preparing the story is really something essential, and I feel we never talk about this, but it's 50% of the, making the story, success of the story. You, you really have. And, and the fixer is really is the key. I always tell a story about the fixer. The fixer who I was working is called Ajos Sanura. He's still working. And now it's funny, I saw recently he post now you have a tourism in Somalia. You have some crazy tourists who want go where is the most dangerous place. You have in Kabul, you have in Somalia. And y- now I, saw he post some picture with these American tourists in Somalia. And one day there were a big big famine drought. Many people died at this time. And we went in one hospital. A kid who just died and the family have no car for bring back the kid, the body of the kid where they live to bury. Donc, with the fixer, we decide to bring the, family with the body of the kid. And when we arrive in one place, there were many people arrive around us and we, have some, I was with a bodyguard and I take some picture and suddenly the fixer say, "Pascal, we have to go." normally he never push me. And you know the photographer who have never finish say, "Yeah wait, a minute." And I continue take picture. He said no, we have to go." like I know him very well, I knew something is was wrong. We go and I say, "Why?" He say, "You have seen a guy who is handicap behind us?" I say, "Yes." He, tell me his profession is taking hostage. He have a cage at home and he put some host-hostage. Because we always talk about foreign hostage, but you have a lot of local guy who are taking hostage. Especially the guy who have money and so on. And he say, this guy ask me, you bring me a new mutton." and and he ask him, "Which nationality is your guy?" And the fixer say, "Ah, he's a Romanian guy." And he tell him, "Don't you- take care because Romanians have no value. Nobody take care of them. It's like the dead cow. Nobody will take care of them. he said that, "We will come back this afternoon." And okay. And finally, he dr- he drive the guy like this, and it was very clever. And after I ask him, "Why you say I am Romanian?" I say, "During just the Restore Operation, when many American but also many countries send some army guy, the only one who have nothing, it was the Romanian. And the children say they don't have even candies for children. be very poor, these people." And just to say how a fixer can help you and save you
Tom: Pascal, something also you say that the most difficult part is to be just in the place where something interesting happens.
Pascal: Yeah,
Tom: The-- Somalia is then the ultimate ex-example of your philosophy, no?
Pascal: Oh, yeah. Because Somalia is very difficult. Each thing is difficult. It's you have to take care. You are you have to go there, and you have to go out because it is always what is difficult when you take picture, especially when it's dangerous or when there is trouble. If you don't push too much, go too deep, you will not get good picture. But you have to stop not to fail. It's mean not to be arrested, not to be forbring back to the picture. The, access is the key. Taking picture is easy. If you have something very interesting, everyone can make a picture, to get the access, to understand why and how to get it, this is the most difficult. And you have to find the key to be there, and sometimes the key is difficult.
Tom: You have your good fixer
Pascal: Oh, yeah. Fixer. And slowly when you go back time to time, fixer start to be friend. And of course, when he get in trouble, you can help him also. Jos one time he have to f- flee to Somalia. He went in because he, there were a story we fixed for New York Time and the government of Somalia was not happy. He have to escape. And of course, in this case, he will ask to the different journalists who, we can help him. And slowly you have a, friendly friendly relation. And we, when you do this job, you have to never forget world, the people your partner.
Tom: Yeah, of course
Pascal: work with them. You are all together. you are nothing
Tom: Yeah Pascal, let's do anoth- the Albertine Rift story
Pascal: Yes
Tom: This is different. This is wildlife, population pressure, conflict, migration, environment.
Pascal: Yeah
Tom: What drew you to do this story?
Pascal: Me, I have not done the wildlife piece. There were another photographer, Joel Sartore, who did the wildlife. Me, I
Tom: Yes
Pascal: the conflict part the mine, the rape of ladies. All was the human effect of the conflict part. It's also not a very easy place to work, but I go to the Congo from 1980. It's mean I know I work 45 years on this place, and I have quite a lot of contact also and I a knowledge about this. It was difficult but not too difficult to manage it.
Tom: Because this story, you make this with Robert Draper also and Joel Sartore.
Pascal: I think I work, yeah, practically always with the drafter, with Robert. Maybe another story I don't need. And it's important also to know the writer, to understand because some-- of course, like you said at the beginning, it's never work like you expect, and you have to take decision, and not always easy decision, and it's good to know each other. It's very important
Tom: But you work-- Joel Sartore, he was there with you at the same time?
Pascal: no, we were separately totally. And he was not at the same place. He worked mostly in Uganda. Mostly, yeah, for the wildlife. No, we were tot-- Geographic normally you are really each... Even with a writer like like the Rift Valley, I make three or four trip and Robert, the writer, make one trip. He, he-- W- Because they think y- you need more time for photography of the writer. And sometime we work not at the same time, but we, spoke about the same story, the same idea. But the picture will not, make illustration of the writing. Each one have a s- his own language. The writing have its own language and the photography have its own language. And together make the story more rich
Tom: Because this story, Pascal, is not like one single subject. It's like systems that are under pressure there. Is that something you look for, multiple stories in one story?
Pascal: Yes, it depends the story, but I like this because, you can explain a complex city of z- what's happened there. And when you do Geo Magazine story, you need to touch different aspect to make a puzzle who all the puzzle will show you what is the situation. But sometime is only one story. I did a story about charcoal And is only one topic. And it was funny, I don't did for Geographic because it was planned for them and the new editor-in-chief he feel the story was too sad. But is-- what is interesting, you know how many people each day need charcoal for cooking in the world?
Tom: No idea
Pascal: 2,500,000. A third of the population of the world will not eat without charcoal, it is 50% of the deforestation of the world. And and I like the story like this because not-- nobody really take care. You ne- you never heard about story about charcoal. And it's funny because when I was-- I did for French different magazine, I shooting during two, three years, different not only this, but at different spot. And always when I have people asking, "Oh, you are working about what?" I say, "Charcoal." Everyone was laughing. "Oh, yeah, barbecue."
Tom: There we go.
Pascal: say "No It's more deep of this." And I, didn't know the story why I like it als- also. When I come older I will... I like to do story nobody really take care, l- like charcoal. And I did a story also about how 700 million of people in , Sub-Saharan Africa live without electricity. How? And this is the biggest problem of development. And this type of story is interesting because you touch security, education, health work, migration because people leave village because there is no electricity, no job at all. And you can touch many different top- topic on the same story, and at the end you make a deeper story. I like this type of story who I w- I will say I will be in alert about story who's not really covered. And it's easy for me because when you travel a lot, and you listen
Pascal: About what... Electricity, there is not one day Africa I never heard someone who take-- to spoke about this problem. a crazy. It touch everyday life of the people. Every day of the people. This is what I like also to, to work on to- story like this.
Tom: And how hard is it to convince an editor to say, "I'm going to make a story of no electricity in Africa?"
Pascal: It was quite difficult. They-- I did first for French magazine, Figaro Magazine, the editor-in-chief said, "Okay, I like you, but I don't know how I will, The director of photography. "How I will convince my boss to do a story, feature story without light." "Okay." And finally it's work and I get a price grant for finish the story about French development agency. Yeah. On Voila
Tom: you do a story like, like your charcoal story, Pascal,
Pascal: Yeah
Tom: have any idea when, you start this that it's, it, it has many layers. It has energy, poverty labor, environment, armed groups. You have any idea what you're getting into when you start it?
Pascal: No, it's come, it's always come it was, I start by Somalia. I, at this time, I went every year two, three time in Somalia, and each time I was there, I saw lorry, big lorry full of charcoal. one day I said, "There is few trees in this country. What is wrong? Where is going this charcoal?" I make some research, and I see the people who take care about this business was the Shabaab The Islamist side, and they get $50 million about this business each year. I was surprised. And after I look where they sell it in Qatar, in Arabi Saudi, in the Gulf and it was bizarre. You feel something is wrong because i- in Arabi Saudi, you have no tree, and if there is very small, you cut, you go in jail, and they make this country totally destroy the nature. And if you push your reflection, you say, "Okay, the Qatar, if they buy charcoal, did they give money to Shabaab or maybe give them some gun?" I don't And I start to make investigation, and I want to do story about Somalia, but we cannot make it. I make some picture when I saw the lorry, but you cannot make it because the zone where there is a big business, it was controlled by Shabaab and also by the Kenyan military who are also in business with Shabaab about this. cannot get the access, but I still, uh, investing thinking about charcoal. And of course, when you travel, I saw many place on the road where there were people sell charcoal, and and I make the research, and I discover the, number of people who it. what is terrible
Tom: course
Pascal: is m- is more used in a big city, like a city in uh, Kinshasa in the capital of Congo. 95% of the people cook with charcoal. And now you have 17 million of people, and the population will double in 30 years. And if we don't have any solution, y- I don't know how many trees will be will be, converted in charcoal. This is crazy. Something is going more. And I make exhibition. I have an exhibition in Visa about charcoal, and after the exhibition tour, yeah.
Pascal: Voilà, the story.
Tom: Let's talk about photojournalism Just a little bit, Pascal. What's the-- When you're-- It will be difficult, but when you arrive in a new place, what's the first thing you do?
Pascal: The first day are, always difficult because sometime you need authorization you need to fix the logistic and of course nothing work like it was previous. And what I do I meet the fixer. I will arrange every logistic thing. I will meet some people. If I have time, I will meet maybe local journalists to talk or some contact to talk about what I want do. Even if now is more easy to make the research before, but I always check everything. And after, it depends the story. If I can, I sh- shoot a lot at the beginning because at the beginning you are very fresh and slowly when you go days after days in your story, something you saw, you have-- you think you-- this is normal. But at the beginning, your vision is very fresh and y- you are very sensitive of everything. I will shoot a lot, Normally yeah, I will shoot a lot at the beginning and after slowly I will get-- try to get in the point I need to get in. And sometime you don't-- you need time to get authorization, to get good contacts, the people don't want picture, to convince. a work
Tom: What makes a good reportage story for you, Pascal?
Pascal: I will say a s-- the two example I give you, the story w- nobody have really done, the story will have really an impact on the life of the people the story who is strong enough make some strong picture. Because of course, if you want interest the public at your story, you need to have strong picture. You need it. are photojournalists. I feel really photography is the most difficult because it's zero or one. If you move right, you can call after to someone, get more information, you have the history. If you make radio, y- you can make the interview. If you make TV, I always give the example of the hunter of bear. The-- you can film the guy who is hunter and turn and film the bear, even if the guy will not kill the bear. But in photography, if you make a story about a hunter or a bear, bear hunter, you will have to have the two on
Tom: Yep. Yeah, yeah
Pascal: story. This is more difficult. But what I like in photography, you are you are like a commando. You are alone. You are not a big crew. You can move m- even if you are two with a writer, you can move easily. uh G- gear are not too big. You can really go fast go deep. I feel it's more easy. Yeah, a good story is a strong story with quite a lot of different aspect, topic. And, you need to have good story in each part of-- a good picture in each part of the story. Because normally the, in the story, you will have a high point where the picture are incredible and is very weak. And if you want really your story strong, you need to make the weak part of visual part good s- good picture. Yeah, interest, yeah, a good journalistic story. Yeah, this is a good story. An unexpected story, discover sc- story. And we are photographer, we need visual story
Tom: Of course. Yeah.
Pascal: The one who
Tom: Now
Pascal: the best I think was Salgado. Salgado, he never do weak visual story. Each story's shoot, he knew the visual was, will be strong. And yeah the result is strong.
Tom: You ever meet him?
Pascal: Oh yeah, we was g- good friend. Yeah. It's a
Tom: is something that, yes, it's like we talked before, it's a small world You remember in National Geographic this paper they had, I don't remember who... They already told me who had this on his computer saying, "We publish photographs, not excuses."
Pascal: Ah, yeah, I who's-- I th- maybe Koberstein did
Tom: Koba Stein, maybe. Yes, maybe
Pascal: Because the photographer, of course, it's difficult to be on the field, and it's never work. You always expect more and better success. And many time, the photographer, when you come back, you start to say, "Ah, it was good, but, ah maybe if I was more lucky or y- yeah, if I was ah, I can get better picture." And they say, "Listen, here we publish picture but no excuse. We are not interesting about excuse." And this is fun, but this is strong
Tom: Pascal, talk a-- let's talk a mo-- because we talked before about Visa pour l'image. You won the Visa d'honneur in two thousand sixteen, and I think George Steinmetz, he won last year.
Pascal: Yeah
Tom: it mean, what it means for you?
Pascal: Ah at this time I think the rule are little bit changed. Now is Jean-François Leroy and Cyril Touais from Figar-- who decide. But when I get in, it was all the and the director of photography of the world who vote. And to be elect by all the group of these people, it was nice. Yeah Yeah. It's, a pleasure. Is, and yeah. Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, it's cool. But Visa is my family. We, French people, we grow up with Visa. We start our career in same time of Visa. And Jean-François Leroy is really a good friend. We know him from the beginning. me, I was lucky. I get 12 exhibition in Visa. It's a lot. It's a lot.
Tom: It's a lot, yeah.
Pascal: For, us, it was a good chance because in Visa, we can meet all the director of photography the world in one week. We can meet our colleague normally we ra-- we never saw them in the field. can see exhibition from all the world, all around the world. This is fantastic. And what is fantastic is all the public who come to see exhibition. And everything is free. No payment. Everything is free, and this is rare. And slowly, Visa give an education ab- for the population about what is a photojournalist, what is the world, because it puts a light on some of topic of the world. It's fantastic. And one thing we don't, nobody knows, there is one week where there is 25,000 children of school who come at Visa. as a photographer, we make we make a speech at this class during one week. And this is fantastic because you are sure for the children is br-- is open some window in the mind. Definitely. And Visa, for that, is fantastic. And all these thing are free. So it's really a gift And I will always say if it was in Ambo, he w- I will not have the same career. He's in France. And plus in, s- south of France. This is a good luck. Yeah. you you come every years more or less?
Tom: Yes. So Pascal, we will meet up there in September somewhere
Pascal: With pleasure
Tom: We will have a nice glass of wine then, no water.
Pascal: Absolutely. Oui, c'est vrai. Merci
Tom: end this, Pascal, Tell me-- Let's go one moment back just for Chris at National Geographic.
Pascal: Yeah
Tom: Tell me one of the best moments you had there to end this podcast
Pascal: With Chris?
Tom: With Chris or with another photographer
Pascal: Ah,
Tom: at the offices
Pascal: for us it was a incredible luck because Chris is a photographer. He knows the field. He know us. It was the first time we have a guy from our family who get And he understand our problem. He understand the story. It was fas- fantastic. And he, really protect us. protect me. When I want do something and he believe it, he will give all the support. And it was a great chance. A great moment in National Geographic I think is the seminar. Each year there is a seminar photograph, for photographer in Washington, and we meet during two, three days all together. And it, yeah, it's super to see many photographer. You have seen their work from many years, and finally you spend time together. Bill Alard, who is incredible photographer. Like Nick Niccol. S- Steve Harvey. All these guy. And we have the chance to spend two, three days to talk about our job, to have fun, to talk about the world. It ... This was a great moment.
Tom: Nice.
Pascal: Yeah.
Tom: Nice ending.
Pascal: Okay.
Tom: We should, say bye now. Pascal, thank you so much for not only sharing today all your stories about your photographs, but also the histories. I loved hearing them, and I hope we can catch up in September in Visé pour l'Image. I look forward to that.
Pascal: With pleasure. I am sure we will spend time in Visa and thank you for all what you do for our profession. This is
Pascal: Merci beaucoup
Tom: My pleasure. Have a nice evening still, Pascal.
Pascal: You too. Bye-bye.
Tom: Merci. Bye
