Tom: Bob, let's walk over to the next image.
Bob: Sure.
Tom: The lava eruptions in Hawaii 1974. How did you get this assignment?
Bob: Remember I said I had an assignment on the big island. No idea that it was gonna go off, so when it started to erupt, I went up to the Volcano Observatory, I happened to run into one of the volcano agents. I don't think at that point he was the Chief Seismologist, but he was an amateur photographer and he said I photograph out on the, on the volcano. I can take you out there with me. said that sounds like pretty good deal. The interesting thing is that he eventually went and became the head of the geology department at the University of Washington. was a dean And before that, he covered Mount Lane Helens, eruption. And so did I, which, and we're still in touch. He's retired now, but we're still in touch. His name is Robin Holcomb. Robin and I were he told me the things we had to do first thing we had to do we had to go buy some fiberglass and fiberglass our boots the heels and the toes. The reason was, is that, because the lava was so fresh, if you went up near the, where it was erupting the obsidian would just cut your boots to nothing. You, your boots wouldn't last for two trips up there. So it was all fiberglass on the toes and the heels. then we had these helmets and then wasn't, so it was very interesting. It could go up on the windward side. If you went to the Lee side, you got all kinds of sulfur dioxide, smoke and heat and everything. 'cause it was blowing that way, but you stayed up on the side that was still going. You could really walk right up almost to the rim. You could look down at the lake, at your feet. Brand new stuff. Funny Robin says to me, okay, now when we get up here real close to the real close to the lake, I want you to be real careful right in here. And I said to him, Robin, I said. been being real careful for the last two hours. I don't know how I can be more real careful. 'Cause the problem is that your foot would go down through there, and of course you your boot would go into the lava, hot lava. So we had to get off that lava quite a bit. 'Cause it was you couldn't stand it right through your feet. It was 2000 degrees and it just cooled. So probably it was a thousand degrees. So it was pretty warm. Couple of times, we put down our helmets while we were there for, I can't remember why. And we went back and the helmets had melted they were plastic. So we have pictures of us with their melted helmets on that as well. So I said look, I need some scale here, how high this thing is going off. I said, if you stay up here by the rim. What I'll do is I'll go down I'll take a picture of you in a foreground with that up there. The picture that you see is a normal lens. That's a 50 millimeter lens. So it's not like a telephone or anything like that. You're it would be like you were standing there. So I'm waiting for the sun to go behind the cloud if the sun was up then the lava wasn't, wouldn't be as brilliant as red. I Go behind the cloud. waiting for clouds to happen and Robin's walking back and forth there, and finally he's calling , Hey Bob, it's getting pretty hot up here. Are you about done? about done, hang on. So finally, yeah, of course. Said some went behind the cloud and I shot that picture. So he came down right away. It's was a very interesting thing. What was to me. There were tourists that would come 'cause it was Hawaii, right? and the little path that led up to a place, you could get a pretty good view of this thing. And there were tourists that wouldn't get out of the bus. You're thinking, Hey, yeah. So
Tom: So this, so the picture you just told is the one that got the cover in the National Geographic magazine? Yes.
Bob: it's also it's in the museum now. They have a museum, called behind the photograph and that picture's pretty big. And their new museum in Washington, DC with a caption of how it happened and what that was going on.
Tom: You have to take me there, Bob.
Bob: Okay. Yeah. Once they finish it,
Tom: And then it also became a National Geographic documentary about this.
Bob: They call it behind the pic, the behind the cover. They sent me back about let's see, it's 12 years ago or so, they sent me back to try to recreate that picture unfortunately, the, wasn't going off like it But it was going down these lava tubes and into the ocean. Is that. Where it was going into the ocean for us, fortunately for us, was the national park. we got permits to go into the national park where the actual the volcano USGS was couldn't go in there without them being with us. To go at six in 30 in the morning when we wanted to go, when the light was good for us. So we were fortunate to be able to go on a national park. The parks the USGS did not like that film at all. They thought that was very dangerous. They thought I was putting myself in danger and people shouldn't be in danger like that. what I tell people is that, photojournalist, they don't. into a situation where they think they're gonna be killed. They take risks, calculated risks, and sometimes a calculated risk. Can't put 'em pretty close. But the thing is that, most of the time if I ever came close to having any kind of danger I was, afterwards I'd say, whew, man, that was close. Or When I put my camera bag under my arm and ran away from a riot, whew, that was close. you just If it's journalism, you're not setting anything up. anyway, they didn't care much for that film.
Tom: Because you don't decide in the moment. When the risk is acceptable, Bob?
Bob: Yeah. And I, the thing is that, as I say about helicopters, we've, look, we lost a number of people in helicopter crashes. 'Cause they're, it happens. But the thing is that it's a wonderful platform for photography it's moving. You can move the platform anywhere you want, to get the picture you want. And I used to have a saying that we, you want to look on the pilot's brow and see if he is sweating and if there's no sweat on his brow, he is not low enough. A lot of, I was in one of those up in the Arctic where we hit the tail rotor of the helicopter. And the pilot tried to get going. It was a G three, a little small one. And we helicopter tried to get the altitude and then. The tail rotor just started rolling around the our cockpit. So he just shut it down and we came down, boom. And as we came down, it was a crack right down to the front of the bubble, the plastic bubble. We get out and we look and the actual boom to the tail when we crashed, it that to a helicopter pilot and we're like 82 degrees north. And the helicopter pilot looked at him and he said I said, looks like there's an artifact from this year 'cause nobody's ever coming to get this helicopter back. And we had to walk out, which was all walk, but you get 24 hours of sun. So didn't have to worry about that. It was just a long walk, Nine hours. So anyway, yeah. That, those are the ways that you don't know you have that danger until you have that danger..
Tom: So Bob, that volcano picture that shows something that is explosive and unstoppable. The next image I want to talk to you about is a bit, almost the opposite, is a quiet moment in nature that not long after you took, it was gone forever. Your picture of the la let me say the UA birth.
Bob: Yeah.
Tom: How it's pronounced.
Bob: Oh
Tom: Oo, Bert.
Bob: That's it.
Tom: With what intention? You went there to make a picture specifically of this birth, or you were just already in the neighborhood .
Bob: I wanted to go with the wildlife biologist, John Cock, and he worked U. Gs. Now, the part is that they were even him as a biologist and a researcher they were worried about harassment. They didn't want to harass these birds or anything. so it took a couple of weeks for us to get approval, for me to go with him, The bird. So we go up there and it's the wettest place on earth. They get over 600 inches of rain a year. All of the you see a branch of a tree and you grab it and you find out that most of the branch was this moss that was laden with water. Everything is wet. It's very cloudy. And there's another picture in those books of Y Ali from outside of the of the top. But we get in there by helicopter. And we are taking a tent sleeping bags and food, because there's many times it's been happened where they get sock in and the helicopter can't come to pick you up, so you have to stay there for a couple of days. We're hoping that wasn't gonna happen, but we had to have all that food and stuff there. It's catched right where the helicopter is gonna land. Of course, this again before cell phones, we couldn't talk to him. So now we're in the area where cock has got recordings, two recordings, one is of threats and one is a m call and he puts a tape recorder in that day. tape With the speaker and the calls start, and pretty soon, here comes the bird and it lands on the branch. Again, it's film days, and let me tell you, it's dark up there. There's, and not Field. I can't do much. And of course I can't get the bird to come any closer than the bird wants to come. And so I knock off about two or three pictures. Fortunately I got one that was sharp enough and then the bird goes away. we started going back to where the helicopter's coming and watching the clouds coming right up the mountains, right? And it gets maybe, oh, I don't know 40, 50 yards, the big clouds coming in, and here comes the helicopter. Wow. Spent three days there. So I'm at a, an exhibit an art exhibit up in Maine. Hear this bird call and I go in to this exhibit and, this artist an exhibit with birds and other things that, and talks about endangered species. And on the wall there is a explanation about the O bird and the fact that he had gotten this recording. And this is the last call you're ever gonna hear. The call On the picture lives on, but the bird doesn't.
Tom: But at the time, Bob, that you make this picture the last picture of this birth really did John sin. He realized that the birth was on the brink of extinction, or this was something that came later.
Bob: Oh, he knew it was on a brink of distinction, but I would imagine I didn't talk to him about it, but I would imagine that he thought that he would be able to go up there again and get, another, picture or whatever he wanted to get. But I don't think he ever did. And he would go up there, but the bird never appeared anymore. That was the issue. And they
Tom: For,
Bob: out was we contacted him before the story came out, and he told us that it just had never appeared since we do that particular. Expedition, I guess you'd call it.
Tom: And for how long time you saw the birth?
Bob: Oh, not long. Five to six minutes, maybe Here. Maybe about, I don't know, 40 seconds, 50 seconds. He was around and he was looking for his mate, 'cause he could hear it, Mate,
Tom: What gear were you using for this assignment, Bob?
Bob: I think at that time I was that as an nron picture, of course. I can't remember what the camera was. I have friends, geographic friends that tell us what camera they were using and what f-stop and shutter speed. And I say, I don't know. I was there. Of course, nowadays you get all that information,
Tom: When you make a picture like this, Bob, does it feel like a kind of honor or like a burden or a bit of both?
Bob: it's not a burden. I said, you're trying to do the best you can. Obviously, you're trying, you're up there, you're trying to take a picture of this bird, and the bird is not necessarily cooperating. The weather's not cooperating. You don't feel burdened, but you feel like your chances are few, your chances are few. You better take advantage of this chance 'cause that's all you got. Like for There are that I even take today where they're not framed perfect as I'd like to have them, but I shot because I didn't know if I was gonna have another chance or not. Because in film days you had to do the best you could with what you saw. You couldn't just go And then later on crop and straighten and all that stuff, editor her is seeing full frame, it better be something he likes to see
Tom: Yeah. You think, Bob, that photography can change sometimes outcomes in this or it can change the world if you show it's the last picture of this specific birth.
Bob: No. I think that there was a quote that I read yesterday I thought was a pretty good, quote. And the quote was, the answer to all your questions is money. So if it's John Muir had a good quote too, basically saying that if it's economically viable, you don't have a chance. The problem of
Tom: Yep.
Bob: that once these things are lost we're not getting them back. Even in a city, you want a little park. If you don't make it into a park today, never gonna be a park. It's probably gonna be developed. you gotta make those choices in the front end. So
Tom: It's a good quote. Yes. It's a sad, but it's a good quote. Bob. Let's move on to the last picture. We talked about something that was slowly slipping away. And the next picture is cultures and people that were still very much alive at the time, but just as vulnerable. The YA noami in the Orinoco rainforest,
Bob: Yes.
Tom: I think was 1975. How you ended up there.
Bob: I knew that they existed because I knew about this anthropologist from Penn State who had a real relationship with the Geographic in other ways. His name was Napoleon Shag Nun. And he knew the language. And I got the assignment for Venezuela I thought maybe what we can do is we can do a sidebar, what a sidebar is. And, Small story at the end of the story. But I had to find him. He was down in the rainforest. And so I hired a I flew down to a mission and I hired a dugout canoe and we went to different villages to see if we could find him. And, finally the guy running the boat said, listen there's rapids up ahead. I can't go there. This is the last village we can get to if he's not there, and it's dusk. Now we're gotta go back. I said, okay, , so we pull up and I look up and there's on the bank looking down, he says are you? I said I'm from the National Geographic. He said, He said, I was just in their offices six weeks ago trying to pitch a story on a Yami. And they said, no. I said let's do it anyway. I said, do you mind if I stay the night? And said, no, that's okay. There's another hammock here. I brought a bottle of pork wine. I knew he liked for wine, and On a hammocks. He said, okay, look, I'll set it up in about six weeks. You come back. we'll, and then we'll go up and we'll go to one of the tribes that have just been contacted only six years before. Okay. So I fly down there, we get in a dugout with another Yana mama who spoke Spanish and nap and the dugouts. So filled with gasoline and trade goods and stuff that we go around the corners and we'd have to lean so that the water wouldn't slosh into the dugout. So we go up camp out one night on a little island and we go up the next day. Very boring. You got trees on East Side, this is the Anoka River, and it's getting smaller and smaller. No wildlife 'cause they hear the motor and they're gone. So we get up and there's trees the river. We have to change out to another gas tank. one of the gas tanks that we hadn't got onto into yet was about three feet long,, about inches around great big, Polyethylene container. So we can't get the motor started. And Chegg and all of a sudden starts swearing and cussing and what happened was is that somebody had stolen the gasoline out of that back at the mission, we had gone all the way up the river with that thing full of water. So there, we didn't have enough gas to go where we were really going, but he knew that we were real close to another. another shaana, they call him little place and that we could go there, but he didn't want to go there because the last time he'd been there, had been threatened. In the middle of the night when he woke up, the chief was standing over him with a machete. So he was worried about being there. Chief was a Let me tell you 'cause I know was Anyway, naps smart enough though. He takes all the trade goods and he lays them out in the bottom of the dugout and we pull up the anama. They can't swim and they don't have boats and they're standing in the bank and they're looking down at all these trade goods, new machetes, cooking pots. they had nothing because of everything. And they had nubs of machetes 'cause they had traded through other yami. And so they got the worst of the worst. So they saw all this stuff and they were, the eyes are big. So naps says, last time I was here, you almost killed me. And the thing is, you gotta promise to be on your best behavior and we'll stop, otherwise we're gonna go up. They didn't know. We couldn't go up, but they said, we're gonna go, oh no, don't go up. Don't go up. Stay. So then we're in the shaana, just so happens that one of the people that was there was visiting visiting Anama, married to one of 'em or sister or something of one of 'em. he was comatose, was malaria. And saw that and we had chloro quinine. So we ground up the chloro quinine we stuck it down in the guy's throat with our And but in the meantime we also had brought a ary drug. We called it ebna. They called it Hapo. but basically the tribesmen put this in a tube of a, like a reed, the hollow reed. And they blow it down their nostrils into their lungs, and They hallucinate and they become the god figures of the forest. So they come down middle of the shao as a jaguar, and they're pounding the their staff and are calling out. So they, each one of 'em is a different God figure. To exercise this malaria. They don't know what it is this bad juju out of So they go over to him with hands and they go into the guy's stomach, boom. Of course he's not doing anything. And They pick him up and put him on this guy's shoulder and then they hold him up and they take the picture you're looking at now. And so the guy's got his arms out and you can see in his face that he's not there. Go back over to Shag now and I say, Napa, I just took a crucifixion picture 'cause it looks like that because the guy's arms, So then we run out of trade goods. All we have left is monofilament fishing line. That's all we got left. they know it. So they start throwing stuff at us. This the, they just want us out of there now leave us. So To leave. And we find another guy with malaria. And so Abs says to shaana, not the chief but the shaman. says, bring back some of those pills and cor cla pills. 'em here. He said I don't have 'em. Said You don't have 'em. I just gave 'em to you this morning. He said the chief took 'em from me. And so And says, you got those pills 65 of 'em. He said, yeah. said why you got 'em? I go, they're for the, I got 'em case they get sick. That was who view was. So It was quite the experience. And so the magazine does publish the story on the Anama and with the With nap and both Nap and I have a byline. So what happens is that's the last picture in the story. And all of a sudden, I was not in charge of layout. I was a photographer at the time, the guy in charge of layout said the editor of the magazine threw the picture out. I said, what are you talking about? He said he doesn't wanna put that picture in a, in the magazine. So I said I gotta go see the editor. So I go up to talk to the editor and I said, so this. The, obviously the best picture is taken, and this whole story, Why you threw it out. Why did you take it out? And he looked at me and he said, we use pictures as we see fit. In other words, my magazine. I can decide what I want to use and what I don't wanna use. So I went back down and I said to the person in charge of layout, take my name off that story. I don't want to be, I had other pictures in the story, but that one wasn't gonna be in it I, I'll take my byline off that picture, that story does not have my byline on it at all. So I just felt I had to take a stand There. You a good friend of mine that you may know, a Sam Abel photographer. Considers that to be, considers that to be the best rainforest picture of those kinds of tribes ever taken, Got published. First time it got published is in a book. It got,
Tom: A shame because it's, it directly jumped out to talk about tonight. Bob?
Bob: yeah,
Tom: You were the first photographer there with them, or they had seen cameras already when you were there.
Bob: they saw anthropologists. I don't think they saw anybody. And they very interesting. You would hold up your watch. And you say men made this people, now individuals couldn't get it. Count. So say, From a pretty city. And they'd say HASA, Terry's a big city too. We've been there. Hospi had 120 people in. That was a big city for them. You, if you haven't experienced it's like somebody said got apples and oranges that you have, but what's a persimmon? If you've never tasted a persimmon, you can't get it And oranges debate.
Tom: Yeah. Bob, I think that was amazing. One day we have to catch up with three or four more stories, but now I will pick you up quick with, you were talking about the layout and design at some point then you moved away from being in the field. And you became the director of layout and design.
Bob: Yes.
Tom: Were there moments that you had to make difficult decisions? Choosing one image over another one?
Bob: No, not so much. But here's the reason. when we would do layouts, would invite the photographer the picture editor the layout editor. A lot of times it wasn't me, the designer. So now you got three people and they were choosing how this story was gonna go. layout editor would start with a kind of a rough, here's the way we think it's supposed to go. then they, the photographer would talk about. Why he thinks that this, she This picture should be in the layout. most of the time it wasn't that it was why she thought that this picture shouldn't be in the layout. were trying to get rid of the bad ones. You wanted to make sure your better pictures were published. but of course they were trying to tell a story. there's the old saw that if you have a story about cowboys and Indians and the photographer shows up with 15 great pictures of cowboys and three good pictures of the Indians, they throw out a bunch of the cowboy pictures and put in more Indian pictures. 'cause the stories about cowboys and Indians. The thing is that because there were three, you either had a unanimous choice and yeah, we're gonna use this picture, you had. To the picture editor and the photographer told the layout guy, you gotta take this out, or you gotta put this in. So we always had that of organizing the story. It took a week to put 'em together like that. We'd How it ought to be. And then we'd show them that particular layout to the editor. So it was always a here's a there's a photographer named Alex Webb who does great street photography. A story on Paraguay this wonderful of streets with everything just worked. He had seven of them. And so I took 'em aside and I said, Hey Alex, here's the deal. We can't publish seven of these. We can publish three of them. And we will publish those two pages wide big pictures in this story. You tell me which three you want to put in there and we'll put 'em in. That was the give and take so Could get the best there and still work it. But of course, I brought in all of the computers into layout design. So before, when I first got in there very early, they were using drafting boards. We got rid of those and got computers and then the computers all hooked up together down a hall with what we call bell wire. It was paper clipped up under the so we could all talk to each other. As soon as we could all talk to each other, it be pretty obvious to me eventually, this was before wifi or any of that we were all gonna be talking to each other via the computers. And that's how we're
Tom: Computer.
Bob: send stuff around, which kind of happened. moved from there over to, building a archive digital archive of photography for it. And Moved from there and started the help start the website. I wasn't the only one, but we started the National Geographic website and then, moved on from there to, other trying to get 'em to do A digital archive for the company. But they were print publishers, Tom being print publishers, they were the best. but that gave 'em a certain arrogance of Publishers in the world. And then they could care less about digital. Digital was not a In fact, one time was in a meeting and they I was talking about digital and somebody out in the group I was talking to said my clients don't want, they don't want digital. So I just picked up a, I think it was photo CD or a CD ROM or something like that. I held it up in my face. I went, don't kill the messenger. But that was That was not where they're at. That's really hurt. 'em, unfortunately.
Tom: Yeah. I was going to ask you also this, Bob, but our interview will get too long for today and what you think I call you another day back and we talk about the digital age of Natural Geographic because there are many good stories there
Bob: Sure.
Tom: you did a lot of the work because this, I think. You did this when the internet was barely two years old and you were working on a digital
Bob: When I started it was think 91 and 93 is when the worldwide web started. So yeah, pretty early.
Tom: how landed that responsibility on your desk,
Bob: Oh, because they knew that I was in layout and design. So it was all We're pretty much the forefront of the digital cameras, weren't digital. It was still all film days. so were in the forefront of the digital stuff. I went to a lot of conferences and stuff to conferences where the speakers were let's see Roberts from Comcast the Scully from apple, Gates, Microsoft, all speakers. I'm sitting in the third row now taking this all in and they're telling us what the future's gonna be and it was pretty obvious that they were right. not only that, but they were the ones that were gonna be behind it. I came back to the Geographic and I said, I'm gonna help you into the digital age. We don't want to go,
Tom: who told you? Not on my watch.
Bob: That was the editor of the magazine.
Tom: Oh, okay.
Bob: Came into my office and he said, when is all this gonna happen? I said I can't tell you exactly Bill, but it's gonna be within the next probably three to five years. he went on my watch. Yeah.
Tom: will call you back for this and we will have more amazing stories. Bob.
Bob: Yeah, give gimme some times and dates and then we can do that.
Tom: Apart from photography, Bob, how is your cooking?
Bob: Oh, my cooking, it's all fresh foods. I don't go into the freezer very often. I don't eat any boxed foods or anything like that. I eat fresh vegetables and fresh I do eat meat. My girlfriend doesn't, she's a pescatarian, so she doesn't eat any meat. But, All our meals are pretty, pretty healthy meals.
Tom: But you are a good cook, Bob.
Bob: I'm an okay cook. Yeah, I know how long things take and I know that the answer to a good cooked meal. Is to make sure that all of the things that you're cooking all end up to be on the same time wave. In other words, i'm a decent cook, but I'm not a great cook, put it that way.
Tom: No problem. When I come over, I will bring the wine, Spanish wine.
Bob: Let's do it.
Tom: And we have a great meal,
Bob: sure.
Tom: Bob, to end this, to end our talk today. When you step away from the noise and you think about it quietly, what is the best thing that photography has given you?
Bob: It is given me a real curiosity . In other words whenever I'm in any kind of a photographic situation, I'm always learning something new. so by learning something new, your life has changed because especially when I was a young man in my twenties out in the world photographing and being in places that were very strange to me growing up in the middle West, it changed my perspective on life. I guess Changing my perspective on life really made a big difference. One of the articles. That was done on me was called Catharsis of the Soul, How I feel I'm able to organize through photography. You and are lucky we've got the right profession.
Tom: we've got the right profession and it's sometimes an honor to meet other people that do the same. In this case, Bob, I very enjoyed our talk today. I hope really we can catch up there or if you come next time to Spain and we'll have an amazing dinner with some wine and more stories.
Bob: okay it's a deal.
Tom: Okay,
Bob: you very much.
Tom: Bob, have a nice day still. I think you have to go still to a museum and you have something else to do. So we'll let you go on. But we will in touch soon. I see you. I see you around Bob. Bye.
