"Portraits of Change: The Art of Storytelling" – Full Transcript

"Portraits of Change: The Art of Storytelling" with Carolyn Mendelsohn (UK)

"I remember somebody saying, a friend of mine saying, "My other friend such and such, is saying, is she still doing that bloody project?” And you know what it's like as photographers or as sensitive artistic human beings, you can have a hundred positive comments and it's one little negative criticism like that, I just thought, oh no, people are getting bored with this project, even though it was my project.

And I was invited to go to this gallery, the Impressions Gallery, which is one of the best national contemporary galleries in the UK. And Anna McNeil, she invited me, she said we'd like to invite you to talk about your work. And I thought that they wanted me to have loads of ideas. So I sat there writing a hundred ideas down thinking, all right, I'm going to have loads of ideas. So I kind of went to them and I did have beautiful prints of Being in Between, but I didn't think they'd be interested, so I just said, okay, I have all these ideas, and they stared at me. And they went, what do you mean? I said, I'd like to do this and this. And they stared and said "We're interested in Being in Between, Carolyn". And I went, Really? Just because the whole negativity of that one little comment made me think everybody will be thinking the same."

Intro:

Greetings! and welcome to another episode of The Camera Cafe Show, where it is our goal to move your photography! I’m your host, Tom Jacob, and today we have again an inspiring and a bit longer as usual episode ready for you. We’re joined tonight by the incredibly talented Carolyn Mendelsohn, a UK Nikon Ambassador, renowned for her evocative portraiture and storytelling and winning many awards along her journey.

From her fascinating transition from being an actress to enter the world of photography, through her thought provoking projects, Carolyn shares her journey, insights, and herexpertise with us. Whether you're an aspiring photographer or a seasoned pro, this episode is packed with valuable advice and inspiration to help you set your goals and create those personal projets you have. So, grab your favorite coffee, sit back, and let's dive into the world of storytelling photography with Carolyn Mendelsohn. Let's get rolling.

Tom: Good evening, Carolyn, and thanks for coming tonight on our podcast. It's been amazing that we have you here for a nice little talk.

Carolyn: Oh, it's lovely to be here, Tom. I'm really delighted to be able to kind of share my stories and my process with you. So thanks for inviting me.

Tom: How was the UK the past week? Because I saw you finally had some sun

Carolyn: It's so hot, honestly. It's either, at the moment, it's either flooding or it's really hot. So yeah, the temperature is high for us, it's humid. But it feels like summer, which is good.

Tom: At last, I think, because you had five months of winter. So at last it's coming, now you're awake.

Carolyn: Seriously yeah.

Tom: Carolyn, let's go a bit back when you were a little girl and I think you talked about this image you called forest in the mist. It's taken by your great uncle that captivated you so much. You think in any way this picture has influenced you a bit in your path to becoming a photographer or an artist?

Carolyn: So yeah, it had indirectly. So as a child, my grandfather had this picture taken by my great uncle, Emile Wertheim. Beautiful picture and as a small child I would stand in front of it. It's a Bromoil print I think and they're kind of trees, there's mist, there's possibly a figure in there and I would just stand in front of it for hours imagining myself inside the picture. I loved it so much!

And my grandfather passed that picture on to me. And I actually didn't intend on being a photographer. That wasn't part of my kind of story that I had invented in my head. But I think this picture resonated with me. So really, when I look back and when I became a photographer, I was always searching to create images that were very compelling, that had the same quality, even though that's a landscape and I'm a portrait photographer. My dream is to create images that pull people in, that draw people in, which in a lot of ways, that picture, that print did to me.

Tom: You remember in an earlier talk we had, I told you about the picture that started that got me into photography. And I have the book and when this comes out in YouTube the people will see it, but I just show it.

Carolyn: Oh, yes, please. Yeah.

Tom: My first photo book printed 1989 by Michael Freeman. And it's this picture of Werner Bischoff, of an Hungarian boy in 1947, who's crying. And I know when I saw this picture, I was so amazed at what it could do to me, that only a picture could do that. Make me be quiet, think and said “Oh, I want to be a photographer” but with only seeing this. And I remember this and this is from when I was 12 years old.

Carolyn: Amazing. So had you always wanted to be a photographer? Was that your ambition?

Tom: I always liked it. Then I went down to study film school, but it's more or less the same, it's picture related. I think I always wanted to tell stories in a way. So

Carolyn: I think that's it really, isn't it? Because my career path, I defined for myself as a child because I really wanted to be an actor. And I really wanted to, so I remember my parents telling me that there's no way I could do that. And that was my driver. That was like, okay, I will, I'll prove them wrong. And so I kind of focused all my energies on becoming a performer and actor. And then I didn't, I lived in quite a rural area, so there was no drama things. I just used to practice myself, but I was always excited by stories and imagination and people. And trained to be an actor and then I moved into directing and then I moved into film making.

It's quite organic, really. I think I moved into directing because I wanted to have greater control over how a story was told. And then I moved into filmmaking because I was interested in experimenting with how film projection could be used in performance. And then I started to be commissioned to make kind of film to make independent and art film and film projections.

But it was always about telling story of people, of place, in a kind of quirky sort of way often, and multi layered as well. So I refused to pick up a camera, that was it, yeah. My parents were, like, my whole family were, always had cameras, and my whole life was documented from being really young. And when my life changed and I could no longer make film or perform, I felt very lost. You know, I'd always been creative. I'd always told stories and I felt totally lost. And I had a very, very young family and my husband gave me this camera. And I ignored it. Honestly, I put it under my bed. Why is he giving me this? Why is he giving me this?

Cameras are terrible. I love photography and I you know, I liked going to see amazing work in exhibitions, but I didn't, I never saw myself as a photographer. But one day I picked up this camera and it was a total epiphany because it fitted beautifully in my hands. And I realized that I could tell stories within a single frame. It's beautiful. And that was like the start of my journey, really, and I was totally obsessed.

Tom: How long it took you, Carolyn, to find your, let's say your own voice in photography. You remember like, a key moment that rang a bell that says that this is it.

Carolyn: So initially, that's so interesting, because initially I really loved it because I could play and be creative and mess about and create quite kind of interesting story based images. But not necessarily with people in them. And then I think I was just really obsessed with people. I always have loved people. And it was literally when this is so technical, and I'm not a technical photographer. I got an 85mm 1. 4 lens. And I was like, I understand now how people get that beautiful fall off of focus and how I can just really kind of hone in on people's faces. And I remember just stopping everybody to take closeups of their face.

So at that point, it was probably a year or so into my kind of development. I was just very into just honing those skills, but kind of not, but really getting very kind of in depth portraits of people. And I found that the toolkit, which was the camera and the lens helped me do that. And I think the toolkit that I had developed on my way through kind of narrative and theater and film just were great tools for me to do that.

Tom: We will come back to gear a bit later on, but we are talking here about a digital camera or film camera, your first one.

Carolyn: Well, I mean, it was a digital camera, funnily enough. I had to use film cameras before because in the olden days we all had film cameras. So I did in a very kind of relaxed way use film cameras, but this was digital. I kind of started to use film periodically because of the whole slowness to it. And the whole surprise, but the great thing about digital at that point was that I could practice, I could join communities, I could share my work quite easily, you know, my world had got very small, but I could I started to document my family and their stories and then the people around me. So having that digital camera at that point was really useful. And I have to say, I have to say this, it was a Nikon. So that was my tool of choice at that point.

Tom: I remember I started with Nikon because I saw the pictures of Steve McCurry and I said, this, this is me. This is the camera I need.

Carolyn: Yeah then you continue because it is interesting. I know this is about gear, but I mean, it's general, isn't it? You use what you start with often. I've never exchanged brands. I've just, I felt it comfortable. I used it and I found it helped me to kind of really hone my skills and tell those stories.

Tom: Yes, and then you became a Nikon Ambassador. You are an amazing portrait photographer. You're an amazing lifestyle photographer. And we probably will make a podcast of two hours if we talk about.
But in this podcast Carolyn, I want to go a bit deeper and I want to talk about building projects because you're amazing in projects. If I have to pick, I will probably pick your Being in Between project, captures girls between 10, I think, and 12 years old, in that transition period between being a kid and a girl. What inspired you, Carolyn, to focus on this age and what is the most surprising insight you gained from this?

Carolyn: I think that Being in Between was like a long form project. It took me six years, really, that project. But the starting point was because I remembered being 10, 11 and 12, that age. And I had very strong memories of feeling like really self conscious and feeling. I had these big existential thoughts in my head. I thought I was going crazy so big philosophical existential thoughts. And I remember thinking, if I tell anyone, they'll think I'm crazy and they'll lock me up. And because at that age, those you can deal with those thoughts as an adult, because they're just how we think. But as a child, as a 10 year old, when you're thinking about the universe and you're thinking about life and you're thinking about it but in a much bigger way, it's quite scary.

But also I got really self conscious and I would cover myself in layers. And I remember thinking at that point, I'll never be one of the pretty girls, but I have got personality. So I'm going to get through the world with my personality. And I also remember that things that people said to me at that particular age became how I saw myself as I grew up.

So I have a story that goes with being in between. I think I was about 11 and I was in my bedroom. And it was a hot day, really hot day. And my dad was doing a barbecue outside and I was wearing my jeans and my layers. And I remember thinking, should I put on a pair of shorts? And you see, I was always covered up and I probably spent like an hour and a half thinking, should I put on a pair of shorts because it's hot or not?

And after like an hour and a half, I thought, oh, it's really hard to put on a pair of shorts. And they're probably green, bright, vibrant green shorts. And I'm putting them on. And I was at the top of the stairs going down and my dad appeared, and he looked at me. And he said, “Your legs look so white and choppy in those shorts”. And I was like, a flippant dad comment. And I thought, Oh, okay. And I went back to my room, and I put my jeans on and my layers and those shorts went away. But the sad thing about it is that I never put on a pair of shorts after that because that became for me like a truth. It was like, okay, I have got really white chubby legs. I can't show them.

And I remember as I got older, friends were going, and I was quite little, you know, I wasn't any size at all. And my friends going “What's your issue, Carolyn? What's the problem? Why do you think that?” And I thought, well, cause it's true, you know? And as I got older, I realized how odd something that was said to me at such a transient, pivotal age became how I saw myself. And it led me to thinking about girls of that age, and probably boys too, it's only, it's a series about girls, because I was a girl, so it's like an auto ethnographic, it was based on my experience. I thought, I want to explore this. I noticed also how the girls were like free spirited, they get to about nine and suddenly their kind of spiritedness would stop and they start to look like they were very self conscious.

I thought, gosh, this is really interesting. And I decided that I wanted to explore that and invite girls to have their portraits taken. I wanted them to wear the clothes that they chose to wear. I wanted to make portraits of them as that could be an art gallery. So it was a really strong image I had, but they could almost be old masters. I want to make them important, but I want to make the portraits with them. And I also chose to ask them questions about their lives. And that was a starting point, you know, initially it wasn't necessarily going to be a long project. It was just, I was using my camera to explore that age and to give those girls a platform.

Tom: And how you start a project like this, Carolyn? I mean, you sent out some notices. You are looking for girls, maybe interested in this or?

Carolyn: Yeat, and it is quiet complicated because there's lots of ethics involved in this, aren't there? You know, you can't just take pictures of young people that you're not connected to. What I did was I wrote a blog post. And in this blog post, I shared some images that I was very embarrassed about with myself being 10, 11 and 12. And then I told my story in the blog post about the green shorts. And I also shared images of young, because you know, I had taken lots of photographs of young people, of kind of girls. I shared photos that I'd already taken but not geared towards that project and basically said, I would love the opportunity to give, to take portraits if you're aged between 10 to 12 and ask you questions about your life and I shared that.

And obviously, when you do that, it's all about getting permission from parents and carers as well. So I kind of sent that out, and I also did call outs, I made posters, and initially it was people close at home. And so I remember this girl, you know, little girl, Mabel, ten year old Mabel, and so she agreed to have her portrait made with me. So this was, she was like the blueprint. Mabel was the blueprint. All the direction was wear the clothes of your choice. And I want you to look straight into the camera because I'm imagining that if this ever is exhibited, you'll be looking at people. We won't be looking at you. But then it was talking to her about how she may stand, what was comfortable to her. And I had a grey backdrop, and her portrait became the blueprint. So I started, so obviously I was sharing, I had to get permissions to share this work. And that was a starting point really.

Tom: You have an idea how many girls you took the pictures of in all these years?

Carolyn: Exactly I took 90 portraits. So, ninety portraits over six years. I wasn't doing it all the time because it was a personal project. So, I would fit it in and I would do call outs. Actually it's interesting because I had only taken about six portraits and I showed them to a gallery, just because I had some other work there and they looked at them and said, “Oh, we'd love to exhibit this”. I was like thinking, well, I've only got six. And so they gave me an exhibition, which was really amazing because it was a short, I think the picture's quite striking individually.

So probably they could see that this could be a good thing. So then took about 20 more portraits and had an exhibition. And got them printed at A1 size on beautiful paper Dibond mount.

Actually, what something else I did was, I always recorded an interview asking the same series of questions. From, what is your name? How old are you? To, what do you love? What are you scared of? Really big questions, actually. What would you like to be when you're an adult? What are your hopes for the future? Those sorts of questions, I recorded them, and I crafted, with the help of a kind of musician, a soundscape with the girls voices weaving in and out of ambient noise to go with this particular exhibition. So each portrait has a quote or a narrative behind it, but then in exhibition there's also the soundscape. But I wanted everything to work independently of each other and everything to kind of add to the final project. So that was the starting point.

I was really aware also I wanted it to be diverse. So I wanted it to be a community of girls. And that took a very long time. It's interesting because it's quite scary when you show work for the first time. Particularly because, you know, showing work of these girls could be contentious for people. I wanted them to be powerful. I wanted it to be challenging and I wanted it feel, I definitely, the girls involved, I needed to make sure they understood and were truly central to that work.

So yeah, I also entered the work into competitions. I remember having putting a PDF together and sending it to Huffington Post and then screaming because Huffington Post came back to me and went, “We'd love to share this work”. And I was like, Oh, and it's early on. And then Buzzfeed shared it. And then I won the international photography exhibition for the Royal Photographic Society.

And then that work was shared. That work was in the Sunday Times and it was amazing. I never expected it really. I was driven to doing this project and I think these little and big successes really excited me because I felt that those girls were being seen and heard. So it wasn't like, hey, I'm a great photographer. It was really, I'm so happy those girls are getting their platform. Their faces are being seen. The girls of that age group often marginalized and hidden away because they seem to be awkward. You know, it's that age where people go, Oh, they're really awkward. Maybe we'll take pictures in a year's time. And I thought, no, this is really interesting. So that was within the first year or so of that project.

Tom: And you still have contact with the girls, Carolyn?

Carolyn: Yeah, I do because actually, you know, there's a big story go behind the work and it's been exhibited in numerous places and it's grown in size every time. And I've of had support when it's been shown and I'm always, you know, always share it with the girls who are part of it. So some of the girls who were 10 at the very beginning in 2014 are kind of finishing degrees now or have jobs. And that's so weird, you know.

I'm thinking about things. I remember inviting the work was, I really want people to see the work, but I was really scared of their attitude towards it. So you have to be quite brave sometimes with projects. You have to be open to failing. That's a really important thing. You have to be open to failing, never expect it's going to be a big success. So I didn't imagine what would happen to it. But I had a visual, a strong visual kind of thing in my head as to what it would look like. So it was taken on my Nikon D800, and with lights, I kind of lit, lit those work, that work, so they would look like old masters, you know. And I was learning all the time, so it was kind of, I'd never really lit things before, and I was learning all the time.

And then I remember inviting kind of the business manager of Fujifilm to come. Do you come and have a look? It's printed on your paper and the prints look amazing. And I think this lovely man, John Cohen, came along. And I don't think he necessarily thought he would like it, but he was like blown away to the point that he said, “How can we help you? How can we help you with this work?” And so they then offered to supply paper for me. So it was really lovely paper for me. And then they did some PR and that was kind of the starting point really.

And they celebrated with me and then it was in other exhibitions, and it was in the Portrait of Britain, Portrait of Alice was in the Portrait of Britain. Um, it got to a point where I was like thinking, I would lose the plot with it after a few years. I remember somebody saying, a friend of mine saying, my other friend “Such and such, is saying, is she still doing that bloody project?” And you know what it's like as photographers or as sensitive artistic human beings, you can have a hundred positive comments and it's one little negative criticism. I just thought, oh, oh no. People are getting bored with this project, even though it was my project.

And I was invited to see, to go to this gallery, Impressions Gallery, which is one of the national contemporary galleries in the UK. And Anna McNeil, she invited me to show her the work, not Being in Between, she would we'd like to invite you to talk about your work. And I thought that they wanted me to have loads of ideas. So I sat there writing a hundred ideas down thinking, all right, I'm going to have loads of ideas. I kind of went to them and I did have beautiful prints of Being in Between. But I didn't think they'd be interested, but I just said, okay, I have all these ideas and they stared at me, and they went, what do you mean? I said, I'd like to do this. And we're interested in Being in Between. And I went, Really? Because the whole negativity of one little comment made me think everybody will be thinking the same.

I remember sharing that with them. They said, do not listen to those kinds of comments because what we're interested in as a contemporary photography. Gallery is long form projects because the longer a project is, the more layered it is, the more significant it becomes. It will take as long as it takes. So it kind of felt like I had, I started to get mentors. And then work was then, they then invited me to exhibit the work at their gallery, which was really extraordinary. But prior to that, my dream was to have it as a book. Look, I've got it here! Beautiful right?

Tom: You see!

Carolyn: Yeah, yeah, look at that.

Tom: Look at that.

Carolyn: It is so so beautiful this book. You know, and I have a picture of me as a kid. It's got two brilliant essays. This is a total labour of love. And I was talking about Mabel. This is Mabel.

Tom: There she is.

Carolyn: This is with her quote. Can I, should I tell you the story of the book?

Tom: Yeah, of course. Yeah. Go ahead.

Carolyn: I thought, wow, you know, what I'd really love is to have these girls celebrated in a book, a beautiful little book that gives them a longevity and a voice beyond the project, beyond exhibitions. And I went to this book workshop that the RPS were doing. And this is very significant, really. I saw that there was a workshop being held by them for photographers who wanted to make books. They had some experts, they had a kind of a woman called Zelda Cheetle, who is a photography consultant and is really well known in the UK as an expert in photography. She had a gallery, she's printed books, she judges exhibitions.

So I got about 20 beautiful prints made up and I was really excited because I knew I had to be there. And I put the name, I put the date, I booked, I put the date in my calendar. It was a couple of hours from where I live and on this Saturday, you know, I thought it's on the Sunday, on the Saturday I was in my car. My daughter Poppy, who was 10 or 11 at the time, was doing some running training. She was, my daughter, was obsessed with sprinting and running. So she was doing this running sprint training and I was waiting for her. And then as I was waiting in my car for her, I was also looking at social media. And suddenly I saw that I had the wrong date, that the workshop was happening at that time. I felt, I was quite devastated actually. I felt a bit sick and then Poppy came in and I went, Poppy, this has just happened. She went, you've got to go mom. And this was like two hours late. You've got to get there.

And so I dropped her home. And then I got in my car, I drove for two hours, one and a half hours to get to Manchester from where I live. Centre of Manchester, they had a conservative conference, there was no parking, it was awful, it was like this real nightmare, and I kind of had messaged saying I will be coming and I'm really sorry for being outrageously late, but I didn't need, there was something in me that was telling me I had to be there, and I eventually found parking.

I was almost in tears at this point, thinking this is just all a failure, and I kind of walked along. I walked to the city hall where this workshop was taking place. I walked along this corridor, and I think my boots were clacking along on this corridor. And then I opened the door, and then people turned around, and I tried really quietly and discreetly to sit at the back. And then I also thought, I've got to try to get my prints on that table. So it's like sneaking around and they were doing these talks and I put my prints on the table and then I sat down and then my phone had a sat nav on it and it went, you have arrived at your destination really loudly. And it was really mortifying. And then Zelda Cheetle turned and looked at me and she said, Yes, I think we've realized that you're here. I mean, yeah, when you just want the world, the earth to swallow you up.

So they were busy. They had run talks and I was like four hours late. And then they were doing, they were reviewing people's work. And because I was so late, my work was at the very end and most people were leaving. So, I was thinking, oh no, in my head, my little critic in my head was thinking, she's going to look at this work and she's going to say, I've seen this before, it's hackneyed, it's been done. So this is all myself, my critic, inner critic. And then she got to me right at the end and she looked at the work and she went, “Oh, This is great. This is great, Carolyn.” And she'd seen one or two of the images before, luckily. She went, “How much of it have you got?” So I said, well, I've been working on a series for a long time. And I said, I just would love it to be a book.

And she was so supportive and she became a mentor, a really amazing mentor to have, you know, and it was really weird because it's almost like I needn't have gone because I was really late, not a good first impression. She actually wrote one of the foreword to the book and she mentions the fact that the first time she met me, I flew in with all my work horribly late. And in the end, this book, she just gave me that belief that it should be a book. She suggested a few publishers, one of whom wasn't interested.

And then I had contact with Colin Wilkinson who ran Blue Coat Press at that time and which is a social documentary publisher and I saw him at the, I think it was a photographer's gallery in London and he had recognized me through something and I said, look, I have this series and I'm not sure you'll be interested, but I would really love your advice if you're not about publishing it. And he said to me, “Don't tell me what I may or may not be interested in. And just send me the work.” So I sent him the work in a PDF then, with this email put, I realize this won't fit in with your social documentary, but please can we meet and talk about it? And he sent me an email: “Carolyn, I really love this. This is a document. This is a document of goals of this time. I'm really interested, I would love to publish it, honestly.” I remember, I remember being in a cafe getting this email from him, and again, crying. I couldn't believe it.

So all these little steps to making that work. And there's been lots of times where I've had three or four months where the work wasn't being made because I didn't have a chance. And as time went on, and it took a couple of years to get this published, I knew that it needed to be much more diverse. I knew, for example, so initially it was open calls. Everyone and anyone who wanted to be in it could be in it. As time went on, I thought it's really important that there is a diverse community of girls from different backgrounds, different socio economic backgrounds, different cultural backgrounds. But also one of the things I realized I didn't have was any girl who was limited by physical access was in a wheelchair. And I did a kind of call out on to girls who, you know, girls who were in wheelchairs because they can't get to portrait shoots easily. And I hadn't even considered that. I thought it was so important.

And so I had the last two girls who were in this project, Lottie and Becca, were twins. Becca had cerebral palsy and was in a wheelchair. And Lottie wasn't in a wheelchair, she was fine. And they came and I remember I'm trying to think whether they're at the back, they're probably not at the back of my book. Lottie said to me, when I asked what she was afraid of, she said, I'm really scared of the part of COVID. So this was February, 2020. And Becca was very funny and spirited and wants to do all sorts of things. So her story is really powerful, but Becca is the last character, last girl in said, I'm really scared of COVID, which is so spooky because then within six weeks, we're all locked down in pandemic.

And it was really the final portraits told the final story. So the interviews were a really important part of the project because they also documented the what was happening in society over six years because that also influenced what the girl said.

Tom: An amazing six or seven or eight years that you go!

Carolyn: Yeah, absolutely. But you know, what's really shocking is that I was invited to have an exhibition at Impressions Gallery, and I was invited to have that book published, and then COVID came. And I was like, oh no, you know, so the exhibition had to be cancelled and the book wasn't going to be done. But the gallery just really wanted the works. They waited until kind of the Christmas time. Oh yeah, we installed it. It was a much larger exhibition. And then I had to make the book virtually, what a nightmare, designing the book virtually, working virtually to make a book that you really want during the pandemic, printed in the Czech Republic.

That was such a challenge. And then the exhibition, which we had it installed, had the soundscape, was beautiful, looked so beautiful. I was so proud of it and so proud for these girls. And then it was when you just think, Oh, it wasn't actually, it was going to happen. We put it up just for Christmas.

And then on January the 1st, we had went into lockdown. I remember thinking this is not going to happen. This is just not going to happen. But luckily for me, the gallery decided to extend the run. So it was in the gallery. No one could see it. We had a virtual launch and then they kind of had a film of the work. But then three months later, people go and see the work. So I know it's a really long story I've just told you, without a break, haven't I? But I could never have imagined that a personal project would become something that took such a long time, but also then affected all, all the other work that I was doing in a positive way.

Tom: I think it becomes a part of you really in all these years.

Carolyn: It really does. And it kind of really defined I wanted to do. I wanted to make work that had meaning, that told stories, that amplified those quieter voices, that gave people a platform. And I think that's always been what I've been interested in. And the wonderful thing about that for me is that I started to be commissioned to do work that was based on Being in Between.

So it's like I've got this artist in residence with this longitudinal health study called Born in Bradford, which is a 14 year health study from children from birth. So these children are now 14 and I've been invited to take portraits of them, of 25 of them from 12 upwards every year until they get to 18 or 21. And that's just a gift really for me. It's very different. It's boys and girls and it's, it looks slightly different, but the process is the same.

Tom: You touched the moment before the issue of Covid and then it, 2020 arrived, COVID hit, everybody was stuck at home, and then you got the idea of your true two hour lens project.

Carolyn: Yeah, Through Our Lens.

Tom: Talk me a bit about that.

Carolyn: That was life changing for me in a lot of ways. So, there we were, I have three teenagers at home. Oscar, my oldest, had to be sent back from university. I remember ringing him saying, Oscar, you've got to come home. He goes, no, I'm fine. So how old was Oscar? 18. 19. I'm fine. I said, no, you're really not fine. You have to come home. He goes, no, I don't. I'll just stay here. I went, no, Oscar, you have to come home and your friends parents will be picking them up. So I had Oscar at home. I had Sam at home. He was 16, doing his GCSEs. I remember him saying to me, coming home from school, saying, We're not going back to school. We can't do our exams. I wanted to cry, you know, all these pivotal moments. And then Poppy, who had her 14th birthday in the first weekend of lockdown.

And two weeks of it was quite terrifying for a lot of people, because we didn't know what we were doing, what we were dealing with. And there were some terrible things happening. And I remember thinking after two weeks, I felt I'd lost all my commissions, all my work. It was very sunny in the UK. I remember the weather was beautiful, but there was this weirdness to it all. And I was documenting this with my camera, you know, the family story and what was happening. And then I was also feeling like I'd lost everything.

And there was the opportunity locally, my city I live in, invited artists to respond to the pandemic, to the coronavirus as it was known then. So it was like the coronavirus, will you respond? And they had small pots of money. So they turned their summer activities and art grants into pots of money for artists to respond. And I thought, I don't want to go around taking pictures of people, of adults. In masks, people weren't wearing masks, I don't think, but I thought I'm really concerned that I know what young people are going through and it feels like there's nothing in the visual narrative that was coming out that was about the young people's experience. And I tried to think about what I could do. I thought maybe I could work with young people. And I was thinking maybe on Skype, or maybe whatever I could work with young people to tell this, to enable them to tell their own story. And they didn't have to be interested in photography.

You know, they all had, most of them had mobile devices. And I remember doing a call out thinking, what can I use? And I found out about zoom and you know what, Tom, I hated things like this. I hated video calls. I always refused to be on Skype, but this was like the most liberating experience. I didn't know whether it would work. I made a little poster. I did a call out. I got a pot of funding. Not massive amount, just a little bit of funding and I invited young people between the age of 12 and 19 to join me and I would mentor them. I would run workshops with them once a week and I wanted them to share their work with me to tell their story. And that's how it started. I had about 20 young people.

And I remember I'd always say, I want you to do your worst work. I don't want you to please me. I want to know what your story is. You might think your story is boring, but I'll think it's really interesting. And I kind of ran workshops on how to kind of tell a story, how to find the light, how to compose an image, just very basic technical things to give them a starting point.

And I gave them a little assignments, you know, so I would give them assignments and then they would send their images back to me and their images were so extraordinary and powerful. And then the next session I would share the images and I would get them to talk about each other's images. I would say, okay, and I'd call their names out.

So it would be like, Tom, what do you think of Anne's image? You know, what do you love about it? I'd never say give a big critique. I say, what do you love about it? And they started to use like the terms they go, I love the way she's used the light. I love the story that she's telling.

And I then started to taught them about the genres. So I taught them about documentary photography and I'd share work. So each session I would share the work of an artist, you know conceptual photography, fine art photography. And then I started to invite, the work suddenly blew up on, I would share the work on Twitter and Instagram had a page it blew up.

It became viral because some of the work was so extraordinary and within like five weeks they were invited to be on BBC News. I was being contacted by people from all over the world because of the power of their work and I just felt like these young people, they would come every week and I'd be working on it 10 hours a day. It was really time consuming, but it gave me such a sense of joy myself. And I think for them, because they had nothing else to do, I became like their fairy godmother. So they were always, always motivated. And then I ran, you know, I started to build the project up. It ran for another six weeks. It started to be exhibited outside.

It was, people, magazines, newspapers on like Huffington Post, they all became interested in it. And they were on this amazing BBC news. And I started, I worked with refugees, young refugees who'd just come into the country. So it just grew and grew and grew. And I thought, such a powerful thing for me. You know, I got as much out of it as they got out of it. And I did little satellites.

I think year after I was invited to work with 6 to 12 year olds. I remember thinking this will be interesting in second lockdown. And I thought, okay, I just treat people the same. It doesn't matter how old they are. I will communicate, I'm not going to talk down to a six year old. I will teach them the genres and the words and I'd make it a little bit more interactive. So I'd send them off and I'd go, Okay, I want you to take a picture now of something that you love. And so I'd make it interactive. And their work was amazing.

And then it just taught me a lot really. And I think I still use Through Our Lens as a model, you know, I have a lovely website with their work on it. I've worked with kind of adults, women asylum seekers. So it's something that continues for me and it's all about the telling of the story and the kind of giving people the platform really to tell their own story.

Because I think, you know, when you look at things like Photojournalism, which I think is great, but at the same time, often somebody comes in, takes a picture of people that are under duress or having a really, a really challenging time or in war zones. And I was thinking how powerful it would be to, for those people to tell their own story. So it's kind of sparked a lot of things up in my head.

Tom: And this project is concentrated in the UK, Carolyn, I suppose. You got questions of going worldwide to say something with a project like?

Carolyn: I really wanted it, and I think during the pandemic, it was easier because people's focus was restricted. And I was invited, you know, there was a group in Brazil who contacted me to say, how are you doing this? I would like you to work with our young people. There's a group in New Zealand, Christchurch, whose young people they were working with had been in an earthquake, there'd been a terrorist attack, and then there'd been the pandemic, and the person that was working with them wanted me to work. And I would always invite my group with the experts, I'd say, what do you think about working with a group from New Zealand? They'll go, yeah! But then the reality of like 12 hours time difference made it really tricky.

So I think at the earlier stages, I really had dreams of being able to make it international. So the potential is there, really. It was also that their work, I have to say, the young people's work was exhibited again. Impressions Gallery, amazing, invested in those young people too. And they exhibited the work in a really amazing, powerful exhibition. People come in and they would cry because the work of the young people was so powerful, resonated with everyone.

It wasn't like kids taking photos. It was a document of that time in a very creative way. And then the work has been of Through Our Lens has been acquired by museums and galleries as a kind of definitive collection, pandemic collection of work. So it's extraordinary, like an idea that may fail. You know, it's that thing, if you feel strongly enough and you put enough energy and time into it, I think you made lots of things work.

Tom: I think I was also remembering the other day, just this you told that sometimes people in this long time project, if we talk about five, six, seven, eight years, it will take you, they may be never started because sometimes they think they will need an end for it. While it's all about the journey you told and it's very true. You think Carolyn that if it takes you five, six, seven, eight years and you go through your journey, it's okay to change your own vision of your own project ?

Carolyn: I think it is. I think it's hard sometimes. So I think I kept very much, so with Being in Between, I very much kept a very straight line through it because in my head I thought if I exhibit this work, I would like it to be cohesive over the years. So even if I was taking the portraits in different spaces, I would encourage people to, so it worked with that project.

If I was doing it now, I might choose to do it totally differently. Um, but that the time I chose to do it that way, I think you can change and you can add multi layers to projects and you can add little satellites to projects so that there can be different outcomes. You know don't have to be long form. They don't have to end in an exhibition. I think maybe what stops people often before they even start is that they're imagining a success. And if they don't get that success, they stop doing it. Whereas I was not imagining the success it got. I always had a very strong vision for it. But it was incremental, the development of it, and so people have said to me, how do you do that? How do you get that?

And I think it doesn't work like that. You just have to not imagine it's going to be a big, not think you're going to win a competition, not think you're going to have an exhibition before the very start of a project, but just start doing it. You just do it. And sometimes you do it and it doesn't work. So you do it in a different way. And it's all a learning curve. I think.

Tom: And why Carolyn this long time project, because we all know that if there are personal projects, they make very little money. What drives you to do them?

Carolyn: I think it's not just long term projects for me, it's shorter projects, they give me a joy because it's me exploring the world with my camera and telling stories of things that I am interested in that I feel passionate about. But also because when I was doing a lot of kind of lifestyle work, I was thinking, why am I doing this? Why am I running around after this family? Why am I doing this? Because this isn't what I want to do. So they started doing the personal work, was doing what I wanted to do, and it meant that doing more commercial work was more palatable for me. I think maybe it's the artist in me, you know, maybe.

So I have a lot of brilliant friends like Barry Lewis, who's brilliant, he's a photographer, Daniel Meadows, he's a photographer, they have been so supportive of me, you know, in my work. And I think I do that. I do the work that I do, the personal work because it brings me joy. It has meaning to me, and I feel I can't do anything if it doesn't have meaning. And that's just my Achilles heel because other people just very happy to be great photographers and do work that, you know, big commercial campaigns. But they terrify me.That kind of work terrifies me, whereas doing my intimate personal work. It doesn't terrify me. It just feels like my journey of discovery.

Tom: Hmm.

Carolyn: That make sense to you?

Tom: That makes perfectly sense. Yes!

Carolyn: And well, you don't make money out of it, but I have, so this won't be for everyone, but things have come from it that I never expected to come. You know, and whether it's because it then put me on a platform and made people aware of my work, and then you start to get invited to do other things because of that. And it's kind of having rigour as well in your work and having substance and layers. And it does take a lot of energy and it's not necessarily self belief, but you have to believe in your project, I think, if it's going to last a long time.

Tom: And maybe just as we started this podcast interview with me showing the book and you're talking about the picture, maybe one of your 90 girls will grow up and say, Oh, I want to become a photographer because Carolyn, she showed me the way and I really like what she does.

Carolyn: I think so. People say to me about Being in Between. Oh, I've got a great idea. Why don't you revisit the girls? I'm like, I know because it's about that time and that's what's important. And because I took it over six years, it will be another girls from all over the country. It will be really tricky. But if one of the girls becomes a photographer and then decides to revisit this work, I'd be really happy.

And one of them, Abby, so there's a girl she became quite well known in the series, Abby. She's ten in the series, she's wearing a cloak, and she has a sword. And I remember whilst the work was being exhibited in the first year, and I invited her to come and, I invite young girls to come and she came along and I remember thinking, Oh no, she's all in black. How's this going to work? And she was this little girl with a sword and a cloak. And then she stood in front of my lights and she was like regal. She became so important and then when I interviewed her about what she wanted to do, she went, when I grow up, I want to be an architect. And then I want to move to Romania and set and rescue wolves. That was her quote. And it became like viral! And she was going through a difficult time and was doubting whether she should be able to wear the clothes that she wanted to. And then this were her portrait in particular went everywhere and people were going. I want to be like Abby when I grow up, and that changed her trajectory.

And interestingly, Abby started to do gig photography, music photography. So maybe Abby must be about 19 or 20 now. Maybe Abby will be that photographer. And with Through Our Lens, those young people, I never trained them to be photographers, but four or five of them are doing like film degrees and photography degrees who hadn't considered doing that. That's like amazing, isn't it? So yeah.

Tom: I think things like this, they make it all already worthwhile, Carolyn.

Carolyn: I think so. Definitely.

Tom: Let's move a bit on to some gear questions. Now because you’re Nikon ambassador, which camera and lenses you use nowadays?

Carolyn: I use Z9, I use Z8. And love Z50 1.2, I have the 24 to 70. I feel spoiled actually, and I also have the 85 1. 2. And that's all because of Nikon really, you know, they actually discovered me through Being in Between. I didn't go out to say to Nikon, even though I'd always use them. How'd you become an ambassador? I always get emails saying, how'd you become an ambassador? And I'm like, it doesn't work like that. You know, really doesn't work like that. They have billions of people wanting. So I was just fortunate to be invited by them to talk about my work and then share my work. Little opportunities as a friend of Nikon really, and just developed from there. And then one day they said, we would love you to be an ambassador. And I was like, again, I thought I was going to get told off, Tom. I thought they had seen me do this talk. I'd done various talks to them and I thought, Oh no, I'm a bit left field in my talk. I'm not typical for Nikon.

And then they, the kind of Julian, who's the marketing director said, Karen, I need to talk to you. And when I hear the word I need to talk to you. I think I'm going to get told off. So we are on Zoom and yeah, how are you? And I said, Oh, I'm really good. Thank you. How are you? He goes, Oh, great. So we've been talking about you. And I remember thinking, Oh no, what have I done wrong? He said, We really love your work. We really love your talks. They're really inspiring and we just wondered if you'd like to be an ambassador. I remember going, Oh, I can't believe it. And then because of that, you know, I am so happy because I believe that I can use the equipment that I wouldn't otherwise have been able to use before. And it helps me tell those stories and have a platform for them. So yeah, so that's what I use.

Tom: I think being an Nikon ambassador also open a bit doors here and there in personal work, maybe?

Carolyn: I don't know. I think it just means I can talk about my work to more people. And also the Nikon family are lovely. The other photographers are great and we get invited to do certain things. You know, I think on the way I've had other opportunities so I do other work. I do some photojournalism, some portraits for Bloomberg I've done. I do commissioned work. I just think it's lovely to have Nikon support me and to celebrate what I do among their amazing wildlife photographers. They're amazing, they have incredible photographers there. I think I'm left field for them.

Tom: How important are technical aspects in a photography to you?

Carolyn: I do know my camera, but I don't think the technical aspects are that important. So when I first started I didn't know how to use my camera at all, but I knew how to see a picture. I knew how to find the light. I became successful early on in my photography journey. I ended up on this kind of weird photography show with five other photographers. This was only a year in, I couldn't even use my camera properly, it was a bit mortifying. And they were all like proper photographers, and I was just me, with my camera. But they picked, I was on that.

And I think after that experience, and it was on television, three episodes, with some very important, you know, Martin Parr, Brett Rogers, Alex Proud, important people who are like the judges. It was quite terrifying. And I just thought, right, I'm going to make sure I know how to use my camera inside out. So I just kind of learned as I went on.

So obviously I understand how to use the camera. I can, I can mentor people. I can train people. But the main thing is that you are not scared of telling the story, that you're not fixated by the technical aspects. Because sometimes the mistakes of what makes the photograph helps to know your camera, but it's the mistakes that I think sometimes create something serendipitously brilliant.

Tom: What advice would you give to an aspiring photographer? If you would say the ratio between focusing on gear and focusing on the creative process.

Carolyn: I'd say it's good to know your gear, but that's not the important thing at all. The important thing is that you have passion to tell your story and the important thing is to be open to making mistakes because if you're trying to create that perfect shot every time, you'll be super careful. You won't be open to failing, which means you'll never be creating the most brilliant work. You have to be open to doing your worst work, so make mistakes and learn. And don't be scared or actually I say, don't be scared. I'm scared all the time. So I get these commissions and I have that real fear that I can't take a photograph and I don't think, no, no, don't be silly. Just believe you can do it. So I would say I've always jumped into things that do terrify me a little bit, that feel a little bit bigger than me. And then you have to kind of grow into them and believe you can do it.

So I'd say do things that are a bit scary for yourself. And be passionate about it. Particularly if you're going to be a portrait photographer. But also you are not the most important person. The most important person or is the subject is the person you're photographing creates a space for them. So my thing is about, I guess, co producing that photograph with the person, making them feel at ease. And then being aware that you may not take the best photo, but you just keep on going.

Tom: I think you started with film cameras while you used film cameras before. You still use them nowadays?

Carolyn: I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. I'm really excited. For the past year, I've been using large format, doing a project on large format. And it's wonderful because what it does is it slows me down. I love learning things, you know, and I think with large format, I had to learn how to use a large format camera, how to load docs, like how to load film holders. I've then also learned how to process the film, which gives me great pleasure. And the process, actually, before I even process the negatives, I really love the slow process of large format. And the fact is, when I'm taking a portrait of somebody with a large format camera, they feel part of it. It's an event, it's an occasion and they feel part of it 'cause it's quite slow. Um, it's a very different feeling and I think it informs my digital work. So I've always gone back to film work when I wanna slow down. I love film work because it's physical in a way that digital isn't. But I like to feel that my digital work has a physicality to it. So yeah, I'm learning still and everything kind of feeds each other.

Tom: And which camera you're using for large format, Carolyn?

Carolyn: It’s Vista DX 45. And I was too scared, I got it a while back, but I was too scared to open it up. I don't know, it was like, I had to say to friends, how do I open my camera up? I'm scared of breaking it. And they were going, let me see if you just open it. And then how do I load film and how do I take a picture?

And it was just incremental. I think I've always I just feel so happy that I can take pictures with a large format. Most of my work is on digital because all my commission works on digital. And what I am doing with the large format is I take the large format camera and I'm also doing a digital photograph as well. And I've done a few posts on my Instagram. So I'm using my Nikon as well. And I'm sharing these posts where I'm saying, which one is film and which one's digital? People cannot tell. So interesting.

Tom: In large format of camera it’s bit of luck. We might have Clyde Butcher in September on the podcast.

Carolyn: Oh, great.

Tom: So it would be an amazing episode to talk about large format.

Carolyn: How exciting.

Tom: Carolyn, in your professional career there was a moment that you had to say no to certain jobs to get more specialized to do two things you prefer doing?

Carolyn: Yeah. You know, it's funny. There are certain times. So I think back, there's a few pivotal moments for me. I was doing, so after being in this television series, I was getting commissioned to do all this kind of work that I'd never really to be commissioned to do. I really like doing it. I'll put my heart and soul into it. So all those lovely clients that I had I still wanted the work to be brilliant. But it wasn't the work that made my heart beat faster and I started to lose the joy of taking a photo which I think can happen when you kind of get professional commissions. And I remember Poppy was about seven and I took a picture I was about to run off to do a kind of shoot somewhere. And then Poppy was sitting there with her book and the light was on her and it looked amazing and I had my camera there and I said, I thought I've got to take a picture and I went, Poppy, she looked at me and I took this picture and then I ran off to do my shoot.

And I remember with this picture. Thinking, okay, I'm going to send this picture out to the universe. And if something comes back, then I know that I should be a photographer. And then if nothing comes back, then I don't think I want to do it anymore because I'm losing any sense of purpose with it. Sent this portrait of her. To this competition for professional photographer and I won lifestyle award of the year and I gained I cried because I couldn't believe it. And then I thought I'm supposed to be a photographer and then this was before like the big large scale.

I think I started doing Being in Between a few years after that. And then so yeah, I was at a point where I didn't have any joy and then I started to that. And then I think other points where I didn't. I wanted to tell stories that had meaning. I wanted to do things that had meaning. So I would do commissions. I remember doing a commission for a care home with people living with dementia. And whilst I was there, they said, can you take portraits of the people here? And I said, of course. So I'd been documenting some workshops they've been doing. And then they sent me to this room in a care home and it was awful. It was this kind of painted beige. It was bright. There was no character. And I thought I can't make really powerful portrait of this person.

So I talked to the carer and said, can we find a black cloth to fit over this wardrobe? And there was this big bright light coming through. So I closed the curtains. So it's just that bit of light coming through and I put a diffuser there. So I made that into something and I wanted to give those people, they were portraits of people living in Semenchuk and family members. And I wanted them to have a kind of dignity. And so I very quietly took portraits of them, I took 15 minutes, and that was really amazing to learn that people who were really quite unwell and were living with dementia having their photograph taken. So it became, it was comfortable for people.

So then it was like, how do I create work? How do I get commissioned to doing work that I want to do? And I think in a lot of ways with COVID, with Through Our Lens, I think I made a decision at that point, 2020, that I was not going to do certain pieces of work. I'd already stopped doing lots of lifestyle work, but I wanted to make work that had meaning. And then I just started to get that work, commissioned work that had meaning or work that interested me, you know, might be photojournalism job, or I've just done a lovely commercial commission, working, creating portraits with older people who have a live in carer about why home is important to them. So yeah, I certainly, I think from maybe five years ago started to navigate my path to just doing things that I had that had meaning for me.

Tom: And never stop Carolyn because you're, you're amazing at your work and I love hearing you talking

Carolyn: Thank you. That's really lovely. Thank you. Cause we all doubt ourselves. So I really appreciate that. And I just say to people just jump in and make work. People think for years about a project they may do. But just start the project and be sensitive to who you're working with, but be brave as well.

Tom: You between workshops and mentoring Carolyn. What's the most common challenge that people face that, they ask you?

Carolyn: I think people often want success and I think being a photographer isn't about wanting success. So they'll want to achieve, they want to win a competition and they'll enter competitions and be very upset when they don't get placed. And I think it's an attitude. And really for me, often I try to say to people, don't have expectations, you know, but just do.

So if you're going to enter a competition, realize that there are like 10, 000 other people entering that it's subjective, but actually use it as an opportunity to curate your work, to be able to select your best work, to get it in front of people. And it, you know, it possibly won't, it most likely won't get selected, but don't have the expectations and then the disappointment when it doesn't get selected. I think with projects, so the challenge for people is that they want the whole thing before they even start. And I think they need to start at the beginning, start at the very beginning without an expectation, but with an interest and a passion. And don't stop yourself because you feel you failed at the first hurdle. If you really want it. Tell that story then start working on it.

Tom: Talk about success. How do you define success as being an artist?

Carolyn: It's difficult, isn't it? Because I wouldn't say I'm a successful business woman. A lot of photographers are like business people, aren't they? I'm like rubbish at business. So in that respect, I'm a failure I'm not a wealthy artist. I'm not a wealthy photographer, but I think for me success is when everything aligns. So that your work that you start to tell the stories and that the work then gets a platform and that people recognize that work and that for me is success. And that the work gets seen and appreciated and people get their platform, and their stories told. So it's kind of personal, really.

Tom: So what’s going to be your next new challenge, Carolyn?

Carolyn: So there's lots of challenges ahead. You know, I have projects brewing. Have fun. I apply for funding which don't always get. I think the next challenge is just to accept that I can take a good photograph. And not to stop myself, or fear, or have a sleep snipe because I'm worried about something. But maybe that's never going to happen. So, yeah, I did a lovely project last year called Hardy and Free, it was a commission, Women in Landscape and Their Stories, and it was the most freeing commission for the Bronte Parsonage Museum. And I remember thinking, it was based on this quote by Emily Bronte, called Hardy and Free, I think I've got it written down; "I wish I were a girl again, half savage and hardy and free."

And that's what the whole series was based on. And I thought, you know, I'm gonna be hardy and free. And I'm not going to plan these shoots. I'm just going to invite these women. They have to have stories to take me on, on an adventure to a different location, to tell me their story. And I'm just going to respond creatively. I'm not going to plan the shoot. And that was the most liberating piece of work. I just had to trust that I could take a picture and that I didn't have to plan. I just had to be open to going with them on various adventures, to creating the work whilst I was there in response to what they were saying. And that was hugely was like a pivotal moment for me. And I try to bring that into my work now. I think, right, I've got this commission. I'm just going to respond.

I'm not going to pull out. I mean, I do plan. I make sure my equipment is right. I make sure my batteries are charged, but I try not to overplan what I may do. Now I try to just respond and trust that I have the skills to tell those stories.

Tom: You have them, Carolyn. Don't doubt, but maybe it's better you doubt because maybe then you bring out even stronger work next time.

Carolyn: Yeah, exactly.

Tom: I think we have to stop it here because we will talk for two hours more and I will have to cut the podcast in three parts if we go on like this. But I think I would love to invite you another time and we talk about your lifestyle and portrait photography, and we keep in touch. Because, you know, I'm trying to get my own project done and I will need some little bit of mentoring to tell me, give me your worst shots and then we can work from.

Carolyn: Yeah, I would love to kind of mentor you and I'd love to talk to you again at some point too. And thank you so much. It's been a real joy talking with you today.

Tom: It's been amazing getting to know you a bit better and now seeing the person behind your pictures. It's amazing.

Carolyn: Thank you, Tom.

Tom: Thank you, Carolyn. Have a good night still and we'll be in touch. Thank you so much.

Carolyn: Thank you. I speak to you soon. Bye.

Tom: Bye.

Outro:

There we go, that wraps up this episode of The Camera Cafe Show. I hope you found our conversation with Carolyn Mendelsohn as inspiring and insightful as we did. From her unique approach to capturing authentic portraits to her valuable tips for balancing personal and professional work, there's so much to take away and apply to your next own photography projects.

Don't forget to check out Carolyn's work, we've got all the links in our show notes and follow her for more incredible photography.

If you enjoyed this episode then also follow us of course, leave a review anywhere you listen to us, and share it with fellow photography friends.

I'll leave you today with this quote from the portrait photographer Peter Adams who said: “Photography is not about cameras, gadgets and gizmos. Photography is about photographers. A camera didn’t make a great picture any more than a typewriter wrote a great novel.”

Join us next time for more conversations that aim to move your photography. Until then, keep clicking, stay inspired folks, and remember, every picture has a story to tell. This is Tom Jacob signing of for today, I'll see you next time here...Adios!