"Matt Payne: Chasing Peaks and Podcast Deadlines"

[00:00:03] That's great because that's absolutely something that is a big part of my value system is doing whatever we can to protect the places that we do have left and there's lots of ways we can do that. I think as landscape photographers especially I feel like we have an added duty to protect the places that we love to photograph.

[00:00:22] I've always been confused when people who are professed to be really interested or obsessed with landscape photography and the places that they photograph but they take actions or they do things that jeopardize those places or they vote in certain, I'm just going to say it, they vote in certain ways that jeopardize the places they love. So I think an alignment of your values as a photographer is an important thing for people to consider especially for nature and landscape photographers.

[00:00:57] Greetings and welcome back to The Camera Cafe Show, the podcast where we brew up inspiration for your photography journey. I'm your host Tom Jacob and behind the scenes today are Richard Clark and Tatiana Malavana pouring this all into an exciting episode. Today we're heading into the mountains with a guy who knows them better than most, landscape photographer, podcaster and advanced junkie Matt Payne. In this episode we dive into Matt's journey from a kid wandering in the Colorado wilderness with a Kodak Disc camera to becoming a full-time landscape photographer.

[00:01:27] Climbing insane peaks and capturing breathtaking images. We talk about his love for intimate landscapes and the challenges of balancing photography with conservation. And if that wasn't enough, he is also teaching workshops, he co-founded the Natural Landscape Photography Awards, and we also get into what it's like running a weekly photography podcast. Because trust me, it's not as easy as people think.

[00:01:51] From scheduling guests to editing video and chasing down photographers like herds of wild cats, Matt gives us the real talk on what goes on behind the scenes or his own landscape photography podcast, F-Stop Collaborate and Listen. So grab a coffee, get comfy, and let's jump into this awesome chat with Matt Payne. Matt, good morning there in Colorado. How's been your day today? Thanks for coming on this podcast. Yeah, you're welcome, man. It's good.

[00:02:18] I've already got a lot of stuff done today, so it's a good day. And you yourself as a famous podcaster, how does it feel to be on the other side of the microphone? Honestly, I kind of enjoy it, to be honest, because there's a lot less preparation on my end and I can more be myself, which hopefully doesn't ruin your show. It will show the listener numbers next week, Matt. You did anything fun since we last talked?

[00:02:48] Man, I'm always trying to do something fun, but I think since we last talked, I did a five-day trip out to Utah to photograph fall colors out there, mostly cottonwoods in badlands. So a lot of interesting contrast between big cottonwood trees with changing fall color. And then you have like super muted gray and earth tone badlands behind them. So it was a lot of fun.

[00:03:17] Yeah, we will discuss it later when we start with your photography. But for now, let's walk a bit back. When you were a kid, your parents took you on a lot of hiking trips. And I think this influenced a bit your love for landscape or nature photography, right? Absolutely. Yep, that's how it all started. I was lucky enough to have parents that really instilled in me the values of the outdoors.

[00:03:45] And ever since I can remember, that's what we did growing up is go camping like almost every weekend in the summertime. And then once I was old enough, which was like age four, I was hiking up to the tops of mountains here in Colorado with my parents and got to do a lot of that growing up. So that's how it all got started. Mm-hmm. And you remember the first time you picked up a camera, Matt?

[00:04:11] I remember at least the first three moments of picking up a camera. My parents had bought me one of those Kodak disc cameras where it had like, I don't know, I want to say like 20 pictures on a disc. And you took a picture and then you wound it and it went to the next one. And I think the only reason they got that for me was to keep me occupied.

[00:04:35] Just to keep me out of getting in trouble because I was one of those kids growing up when we go camping that I would like wander off and I would like break sticks off of trees and hit trees with sticks. And I was constantly keeping myself occupied by breaking things and things like that. So I think the camera was like a way of trying to just keep me busy. And when was the time you thought Matt that maybe photography is something for me?

[00:05:05] I can I make a living out of it? I'm still trying to figure that one out. But no, it's that's a that's not true. I make all my income on photography now, but it was probably. Probably. I would say in terms of like thinking I could make it a full time thing was probably about four years ago, I was having more and more conversations with full time landscape photographers on my podcast, which I know we'll talk about.

[00:05:32] And I had a lot of people encouraging me to pursue it and giving me advice. So I think that's kind of what sparked it was just hearing a lot of really great advice from people on my podcast and pursuing that advice. And that took a long time. But yeah, I think that was the first time. And then maybe at the heart of your question is like, when did I really get the bug of photography? And that happened for me all the way back in 2008.

[00:06:01] 2008, I set a goal for myself to climb the highest hundred mountains in Colorado. And for people who aren't familiar with Colorado, the highest mountain is like 14,400 feet high. And then the 100th highest mountain is like 13,800 feet high. So they're all pretty high. And I guess in the meters, like, you know, that's like four or five thousand meter peaks, something like that. So they're pretty big.

[00:06:30] And what I wanted to do is I had bought a camera in college. It was a digital camera. It was a Sony DSC 828. It was eight megapixel with it. I think it was like an eight to 200 millimeter Zeiss lens on it. And I would just take that on the hikes with me to document the hikes. That's really my only goal was to just document the journeys that I was going on. And then put them put the pictures of those hikes on a website that I built.

[00:07:00] And it was mostly for posterity and just show friends and family what I was up to. And then after about three years of that, I got really, really, really into the photography side of it and decided to just push really hard into the photography. Bought a Nikon D7000, bought a couple lenses and started bringing those on my hikes with me.

[00:07:21] And it got to the point where I was so addicted to it that I would bring a tripod and camera and like three lenses, get up at two in the morning, hike to the top of a mountain, set up my camera gear before sunrise and photograph the sunrise at 14,000 feet. So that's kind of how it evolved is the love of the mountains came first and the love of photography came second. And now you talk about your website a moment, Matt.

[00:07:45] It showcases like a mix of grand scenic landscapes and then goes into more intimate, smaller scenes. Did your vision evolve over the years? Yeah, absolutely. I'd say probably the first 10 years of photography, all I would do is pursue big grand scenes.

[00:08:09] And as I evolved as a photographer and as I would listen to people who would come on my podcast, I started to realize that there was a lot more that I could do as a photographer in nature in terms of including those smaller scenes and vignettes of nature and intimate landscapes.

[00:08:25] And what I discovered is that when you embrace that style of photography in terms of intimate landscapes, it really opens up a huge window of opportunities in terms of allowing you to photograph pretty much all day long and photograph in all kinds of conditions and not having to rely so much on conditions or epic scenes. So I can remember the big changing point for me was in 2017.

[00:08:52] Typically every year I would go on these big like 10 day trips for fall color here in Colorado. And I had this kind of laundry list of places that I would want to go visit. And of course, they were all big scenes, like big classic landscape scenes here in Colorado. And I remember I went to this very classic destination, went to shoot sunrise. And of course, there was no clouds or maybe there was some clouds, but they were not very good. And the light was kind of bad, quote unquote bad.

[00:09:21] And I just got really frustrated because I was like, it's going to take me 20 years to get a good photograph from here. And I just this is frustrating. And I actually I was I remember thinking to myself, like, why do I do that? Why am I spending all my vacation time coming out here to photograph these places? And then I never get the photographs that I want. And I remember being so frustrated that I was like, I just need to go hiking because that's how I got into photography to begin with. So let's just go on a big hike.

[00:09:47] So in this area I was in, I found this really cool trail and I decided to go hiking up this trail. I didn't know where it went. I didn't know if there's any scenes up there. I just wanted to get out of my head. So I went on this big hike. It was pretty steep. It was like four miles pretty much straight up for, oh, I think you gain about 2,000 feet over three miles, something like that. It's a pretty steep trail.

[00:10:12] And you get up to this big flat mesa in these big pine trees and you're on the edge of this cliff, basically. And I was hiking along and I saw this big opening. And so I walked out to this opening and I found one of the most ridiculous, glorious photography scenes in Colorado that I've ever seen. And I'd never seen anyone else photograph it before that.

[00:10:35] And it just reminded me that the pursuit and the adventure of being out there and trying to discover things that interest you as a photographer, that's really what it's all about. And that going out to like check a list and recapture what someone else has already captured before, that just doesn't work for me anymore. So that was a big pivotal moment for me. And the cool thing about intimate landscapes is that those types of photographs are everywhere.

[00:11:03] If you can find ways to find them, to see them and practice capturing them. So that's kind of how that all evolved is through frustration and boredom in capturing big grand landscapes that everyone else has already done before. You know Jan-Erik Weider, Matt? Yeah. I did an interview with him and he does the same amazing thing, but in more northern landscape like Iceland.

[00:11:30] And he has a really good eye of finding a little detail in the grand revision. Very amazing, amazing work. Yeah. I mean, it takes a lot of practice because I will say it doesn't happen overnight. I mean, I know some people who they much prefer that and they started that way. But for me, it was all about these big scenes. And now I have the opposite problem. Like seeing the big grand landscape is much harder for me than it used to be. So yeah.

[00:11:58] Matt, what's a shot for you that you feel that pushed you the hardest to get it as a photographer? Yeah. I mean, it's probably the one right behind me that was captured on a very difficult backpacking trip here in Colorado. It was in 2016. You have to backpack about eight to 10 miles into this high mountain basin. Very few people around. You actually can't even drive there.

[00:12:28] You have to get dropped off by this train that goes between Durango and Silverton. And you get off halfway and then you go up this really faint trail. I got up to this high mountain basin. I set up my tent. And I was so excited about being there that I couldn't sleep. And I was there to do two things. I needed to climb two of the mountains that were there. One is called Pigeon Peak and one is called Turret Peak. They're both in the highest hundred in Colorado.

[00:12:57] And the other reason I was there is that I wanted to photograph the Perseid meteor shower, which obviously I would have to be up there at nighttime. So at 10 o'clock at night, I packed up all my gear and I, in the dark, climbed up to the ridge between these two mountains. Pigeon Peak and Turret Peak. I think the ridge is at 12,000 feet, something like that. It's pretty cold. It was like August 17th, 16th, something like that. But it was cold still.

[00:13:23] And set up my camera and tripod, photographed the Perseid meteor shower. And then once I was done doing that, then I hiked to the top of Turret Peak for sunrise and photographed one of the most ridiculous sunrises that I've ever seen in my entire lifetime. I was up there all by myself. Not a ton of people climbed that mountain. Like I said, it's pretty remote, relatively difficult to get there. And then after I photographed that sunrise, then I climbed back down to the saddle,

[00:13:53] all the way back down to about 11,000 feet, and I climbed Pigeon Peak. So it was a big, big, big, long day of climbing, photographing. I think in 36 hours, I didn't sleep. So it was a pretty epic weekend, let's just say that. And you seem very fit also, Matt. Yeah, you got to be, man. Matt, I think you traveled a bit the world, but Colorado seems to be anyway your muse.

[00:14:24] Can you sell it to me? Sell it to me, Colorado, why this is the place to be for landscape photography. Well, okay. So I wouldn't necessarily say that it's the place for landscape photography. But if you love mountains, and you love a variety of mountains, and you love a variety of landscapes in the mountains, and you love fall color and changing color, if those are the things you

[00:14:52] really love, then Colorado is probably impossible to beat. So in Colorado, we have over 600 mountains that are above 13,000 feet in elevation. And where I live, I live in the heart of the San Juan Mountains, which is a very, very, very large sub-range of mountains that contains over, I want to say, of those 660 mountains that are over 13,000 feet, the San Juan Mountains has like 300 of them.

[00:15:22] So it's just jam-packed full of incredible mountains. A lot of the mountains here in Colorado are this really interesting blend of being accessible, but also remote. So that's one of the, because of the mining history of Colorado, there's these mining towns that are like at 10,000 feet. And so you can start hiking pretty high in elevation and relatively close to the mountains that you want to access.

[00:15:48] It doesn't mean it's easy, but it makes it a lot more accessible. And a lot of the remote areas that are here, the terrain is pretty challenging to hike in. But once you're in there, you have a lot of solitude. And there's just hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of square miles of wilderness full of mountains and tundra. And there's really no other place like it in the United States, except for maybe the Wind

[00:16:17] River Range in Wyoming is probably similar. It's not as big, but it's similar. And then, of course, you've got the Sierra in California, but that's a slightly different mountain range because it's more glaciated and it's just different geology. So yeah, if you love mountains and you love photographing mountains, I think Colorado is a pretty awesome place. Then will the place to be? Any bears there, Matt? Oh, there are bears here.

[00:16:46] They're mostly black bears and they're very afraid of humans. So I've never really been that afraid of bears, especially really the only time you need to be afraid of bears in Colorado is if you're backpacking with food and if you're being careless about your food, like you're keeping it in your tent or you're not being, you know, you don't have a clean campsite. Like, that's when you should worry about bears. But for the most part, bears want nothing to do with humans. So it's not...

[00:17:13] The bigger threat in Colorado is mountain lions. And I've had a couple of encounters with mountain lions over the years of climbing mountains, but nothing where I was like in danger of losing my life. I just knew I was being stalked. But yeah, that's probably the biggest risk. And honestly, the biggest risk here in Colorado, if you're into being here is falling. So like if you get up high in the mountains and you take a wrong turn and you fall off the

[00:17:41] edge of a mountain, that's probably a bigger risk. You always hike alone, Matt? Not always. Over the years, I've cultivated a few really close climbing partners when I do my backpacking and climbing. But I would say about half of the hikes and climbs and trips I've done have been by myself. Matt, how you want your work to inspire people? Like how to connect with them?

[00:18:10] Is it in a way to protect the wild spaces that are still left? Man, that's such a good question. It's something I'm constantly grappling with because I've always wanted my photography to be more than just beautiful pictures of beautiful places, which nothing wrong with that. There's something inherently awesome about capturing beauty.

[00:18:33] But I've always wanted my photography to instill in other people this idea of adventure and valuing nature in the outdoors and wanting to go experience these places and protect these places from further encroachment from various industries, whether it be deforestation or oil and gas development or mining, whatever threats exist. I don't know if you've watched that David Attenborough documentary, but it's fascinating where he talks

[00:19:03] about like when he started doing nature documentaries, like 80% of the earth was covered in wilderness and now it's like we've lost over half of the wilderness just in his lifespan. So I really want to instill in other people the idea that we need to do whatever we can to protect wilderness as much as possible and understand what the benefits of protecting wilderness are.

[00:19:26] And not only for the balanced ecosystems and the fact that trees provide oxygen for us and biodiversity and like valuing wildlife and different species, but also for the tremendous benefit that we can get out of it as human beings. I've put a lot of thought into how the time I've spent in the wilderness and nature and in the mountains, how that's kind of impacted me as a human and how that's actually developed

[00:19:54] who I am as a human has been a huge part of my makeup and my perspectives and my philosophies and the things that I value in life. And so I think there's tremendous value in spending time in nature. And that's one of the things that I hope other people are inspired to do by looking at my photographs. Well, your photographs, they do two things to me. The one, they give me an urge to take a backpack and go to see if I can make a nature picture

[00:20:24] like you do. And two is when you're out with other people or with your own kids, you just start to watch that nobody throws nothing to the floor. Nobody breaks nothing of nature. And I start to watch all these little things and say, we have to, we have to keep what is still left and we at least teach it to my own kids. So this do your pictures to me, Matt. So great. Oh, good.

[00:20:51] That's great because that's absolutely something that is a big part of my value system is doing whatever we can to protect the places that we do have left. And there's lots of ways we can do that. I think as landscape photographers, especially, I feel like we have an added duty to protect the places that we love to photograph. I've always been confused when people who are professed to be really interested or obsessed

[00:21:19] with landscape photography and the places that they photograph, but they take actions or they do things that jeopardize those places or they vote. And I'm just going to say it, they vote in certain ways that jeopardize the places they love. So I think an alignment of your values as a photographer is an important thing for people to consider, especially for nature and landscape photographers. Hmm. Let me pick up on this, Matt, because I have printed something out from your website. I have to read it.

[00:21:48] Anyone who has been a nature photographer longer than 10 minutes has probably noticed that a lot of the locations we cherish and love to photograph are under attack. Trash and litter adorn the trails. Hordes of photographers and tourists trample locations to death. Lifestyle photographers and influencers use nature as their props to gain followers, attention, glory, money, and fame. Very true. So Matt, you co-founded Nature First Photography Alliance. Tell me a bit about this. Yeah, I'd love to.

[00:22:17] So when Instagram really blew up and took off in the mid 2010s, we started to see a huge shift in what was happening to public lands and national parks. And with a lot of the locations that traditionally have been kind of, I don't know, like local secrets, for lack of a better word.

[00:22:43] And the major culprit of what we were seeing is that in Instagram, you have geotagging. And there's a really good example of this here in Colorado. About an hour and a half from my house is this amazing location called Ice Lakes Basin. It's this basin that sits at the base of these high 13,000 foot peaks. And at the bottom of this basin, there's a set of three incredible turquoise lakes that are just incredible.

[00:23:12] And then in July, they have wildflowers. I mean, it's probably one of the most idyllic wilderness scenes that you could imagine in your mind, right? Like if you put in an AI prompt, like show me the most amazing idyllic mountain and wildflower with turquoise lake scene. That's what you would see in real life if you went to this place. And of course, as soon as people started seeing geotagged videos and photos of that place, they wanted to go see it for themselves, which I completely understand.

[00:23:41] The problem is that when we use geotagging in our social media use, or if we publish things that go out to the public with a exponent variable like social media has, like if it goes viral, if I have 100,000 followers and then all 100,000 of those followers shares it with their followers, it's this exponential cascading effect where now you have tens and tens of thousands of people coming to a place to photograph and see it.

[00:24:11] And so we were starting to see this happen with some of our favorite locations here in Colorado. And so there was a group of about 10 of us photographers that met to talk about what can we do to fight this because this is getting really out of hand. And it wasn't about trying to keep people out of nature or trying to tell people what they can do or what they can't do. It was really just trying to develop a set of guiding principles for photographers to use

[00:24:41] when they're out there photographing nature. And so we developed our nature first principles. And this was born out of a long, deliberate process of brainstorming and bouncing ideas back and forth and narrowing things down. And so it was actually a lot of work went into creating them. So the principles are prioritize the well-being of nature over photography.

[00:25:05] So a lot of times we see people, they'll go to a location and they'll jump over a fence and they'll trample a bunch of wildflowers to get a shot. And what we hope people do instead is think first before doing something. Like, what if a bunch of people here see me do that? Like, then they do it. And then now all of those flowers are going to be ruined, right? So it's like just thinking first. Educate yourself about the places that you photograph.

[00:25:30] I think this one's really important because it forces people to learn more about these places. For example, the location I just told you about, Ice Lakes Basin, it's at 12,000 feet. So the growing season there is like 30 days of the year. And so the tundra and the plants and everything there is super, super fragile. And so if people walk on them, they will never come back ever. Or it takes hundreds and hundreds of years for them to come back. So when you have tons and tons of people visiting a place like that,

[00:25:59] everything there that's growing then becomes basically dead. So it's a big problem. So reflect on the possible impact of your actions. I think that kind of ties into the first one a little bit. But just like, hmm, what if I do this? If I share this location on social media, will a bunch of people go there and trash it? Maybe I shouldn't do that. A big one is use discretion if sharing locations. And I think it's really important distinction to talk about the use discretion part of that.

[00:26:27] I think a lot of people this day and age are very black and white when it comes to these things. And it's like, you should never share locations or who cares? You should always share locations. It doesn't matter. In my mind, like there's some nuance here. I don't see any problem sharing a location with somebody if you know that it has the infrastructure to handle loads of visitors. Like Yosemite Tunnel View, knock yourself out. It has a parking lot and bathrooms. Like send as many people there as you want.

[00:26:55] But Ice Lakes Basin in Colorado, there's no toilets. There's no facilities. The parking lot's pretty small. So it's, you know, those kind of things. Like think through what's going to happen here. Know and follow rules and regulations. I think we're seeing a lot of people nowadays who are like flying their drones in national parks and, you know, leaving trash and those kind of things. So it's like thinking about the rules and regulations.

[00:27:19] And then a big one is always follow leave no trace principles and strive to leave places better than you found them, which goes back to my upbringing, my childhood. When we'd go camping, one of the first things we would do when we get to a campsite is we'd clean it up. You know, we would get out of all the trash and make it better than the condition it was when we found it. And then lastly, which is what we're doing right now, actively promote and educate others about these principles.

[00:27:47] You see, I think everybody listening will agree with you, Matt. You know, here in the south of France, the picture with the lavender fields running off in the distance and there is a lone tree or a little house from a farmer. They had the same problem there because they geotagged it in Instagram and overnight all people, they put a model in the field and they trampled all over his lavender field. So he had the same kind of issue there. Yeah.

[00:28:15] And it's there's stories like that from all over the world. I've talked to people from South America, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, pretty much every state in the United States. Everyone has a story like that to tell. And our goal with the Nature First Principles is to try to stem that and get people to just think first, you know, think about what you're doing before you share these locations with other people. It's is it really worth it? I don't think so.

[00:28:44] Matt, let's talk a bit just a little bit about gears. Sure. Yeah. So I'm a Sony photographer. I've got three cameras. My primary camera is the Sony a7R5. My secondary camera is a Sony a1. And my third camera is an infrared false spectrum converted infrared Sony a7R4. So I've been having a lot of fun dabbling with infrared photography.

[00:29:10] And I actually just wrote a whole article on infrared photography where people are really curious about the process of camera conversion and filters and different technical things you have to worry about because it's actually intimidating, but also kind of awesome because when I I've been in photography for a long time. And when I started infrared photography, it was pretty exciting because everything was new and you had to learn a bunch of stuff that you hadn't learned before. So I I'm having a lot of fun doing infrared.

[00:29:38] And lens wise, what you're using the most? The most? Oh, man. I would say. This lens right here probably never leaves my camera. It's the 100 to 400 Sony. It's a workhorse. It's a funny choice for a landscape photographer, right? Isn't it? Yeah. And I actually have the 200 to 600 as well. And I've been having fun using that for landscapes, too.

[00:30:03] But yeah, I think, you know, for me, like 100 to 500, that range is perfect for landscape photography. There are so many things you can do with it. But I'd say over the years, I've used a wide angle lens less and less. I just find there's so many more opportunities that you can capitalize on using a telephoto lens. Yeah, it's it's a pretty amazing device.

[00:30:30] You might be interested in large format film like Clyde Butcher does or this is not something for you? I mean, it would be fun, but there have been so many situations where I've I've I've it's so funny because I'll be out shooting and I'll be setting up for a scene. And I'm like, well, eight by 10 couldn't do this. Eight by 10 couldn't do that. Eight by 10 couldn't do this because there's any wind or, you know, like if the lighting conditions are super dynamic, like it's not necessarily going to work out.

[00:30:59] So I don't know, I think film is a nice limitation and can force you to be more creative in that regard. But the way I like to shoot, I'm actually I take a lot of pictures. I like to experiment a lot. I like to try new ideas. And so like for me, film would be like if all I did was film, I think I would find it pretty frustrating.

[00:31:23] Now, I have thought about like picking up like a 35 millimeter and loading it up with some film and, you know, taking some snapshots on my trips and stuff like that. I think that would be fun. But full on film, I don't think that's for me. But it will make a very interesting hike up a mountain, I think also. For sure. I've actually gone on a few hikes with people who only have a film camera and they have a good time. But it's not I don't think it's for me.

[00:31:48] And you touched the moment on editing, Matt, what you're using to edit your pictures. Oh, I'm like 99 percent of everyone else. I start in Lightroom, do my basic developing in Lightroom, and then I'll transition over to Photoshop. Primarily in Photoshop, I'm using luminosity masks to do some adjustments on the shadows, do some adjustments in the highlights, add some contrast to the midtones, do some sharpening.

[00:32:18] Maybe get rid of some minor distractions here and there. But yeah, Lightroom and Photoshop is my go-to workflow. Let's go a bit back to hiking. Let's go a bit back outside, Matt. You let and you're still doing a lot of workshops. What's for you the most rewarding part of running a guided tour? Oh, man. So I'm glad you asked this because it's something I've been thinking a lot about.

[00:32:48] And there is something really amazing about helping somebody who's trying to learn a specific photography technique or improve their images in any way or advance their own kind of personal vision for how they want their photographs to look or convey or what stories they want to tell with their camera. And so being a part of that journey with people and helping them through those steps is an incredibly rewarding process for me.

[00:33:13] And I just love hearing back from students when I've taught them something that they really enjoyed and that they were starting to incorporate into the way that they see the world. I mean, especially that side of it, getting people to think outside of the traditional box of I need to go to this location to get to this photograph and I need to take it in this way in these conditions.

[00:33:37] Like getting people to discover and explore kind of a more interpretive style of landscape photography where you immerse yourself in the landscape, you pay closer attention to your surroundings and then you try to make sense of it through the camera and make an interesting image that says a little bit something about you in the process. I think that teaching people that has been really, really exciting and rewarding for me. And any funny story that happened? Any funny stories?

[00:34:07] Like you slipped and you fell into the water? Oh, man. Well, I've definitely done that before. Man, funny stories on trips. Gosh, I wasn't ready for that question, Tom. Let me think about it for a second. Just to impress your students. Well, just think about it. Will we move on and keep it in the back of your mind? I will ask it in the end again, Matt. Okay. Now, the Natural Landscape Photography Awards.

[00:34:35] As you still had time left in 24 hours a day to do something else, you co-founded this Photography Landscape Competition. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:47] So one of the things that I began to notice in the landscape photography community is that there is a very large percentage of people who either don't enjoy editing photos to a heavy degree, don't know how to edit photos to a heavy degree, have ethical concerns with pushing photos too far in Photoshop. Things of that nature.

[00:35:12] And what I was seeing, especially from like 2010 to 2022, is the photographs that were heavily edited, heavily manipulated. And we're talking about stretching mountains, doing like a daytime photograph of a scene, dropping in a Milky Way behind it. Maybe even the Milky Way is not even from that place. Sky swaps. Cloning in a bunch of objects that don't exist.

[00:35:41] Taking colors and making them a really different color. Or painting in different colors. Like a lot of those really amazing aerial photographs that win in the Epson Pano Awards. Like all the colors in there have been painted in with a brush. Like those colors were never in the photograph. So those are the kind of photos that were winning competitions and getting the most attention. And I could tell that it was frustrating a lot of people in the photography industry, in the community. And I wanted to do something about that.

[00:36:09] And I wanted to give a voice for people who did not either feel comfortable or didn't feel ethically obligated to participate in that style of photography. And give them a voice and a platform to be able to share their photographs and get recognition for their incredible images. And celebrate more of the composition and natural lighting. And let's celebrate what nature has to give us in the moment. And may the best person win kind of a thing.

[00:36:40] And so I partnered with Tim Parkin from On Landscape Magazine. He's an 8x10 photographer. And we also brought on board a couple other people who had strong feelings about this. Alex Nail, who's probably one of the best mountain photography photographers from the UK. And my friend Rajas Jodhiswaran, who's a photographer from California, who enters a lot of competitions. So he was really dialed into how competitions work.

[00:37:08] And we launched the competition with some very specific rules of what you can and cannot do in terms of editing. Mostly aimed at some of those more extreme techniques of focal length blending or perspective blends. Compositing. Warping of objects. Those are kind of the big ones that we were trying to eliminate. Or like heavy, heavy, heavy color work were added. Color and light were added to the scene that don't exist at all.

[00:37:37] Some would argue that's the artistry of photography. But that's a whole other conversation. And so we created the competition. And in the first year, we had over 10,000 people enter the competition. And definitely struck a chord with the landscape photography community. And we're very transparent about every phase of judging. We give everyone like the process, the statistics, why certain images did well, why certain images didn't do well.

[00:38:02] We give everyone feedback at the end of the competition so they know exactly where they landed in terms of which judges said what about their image. We also publish every single year a collection of the best of the best photographs that were entered in the competition, including the winners. But also over, like there's over 120 photographers' work that's in each edition of the book.

[00:38:27] And we also include some well-written essays in the book for people to think about related to landscape photography. And so that's what the competition has become and what it's about. And yes, to your point, it's taken up a lot of my time. Because in a moment, we'll talk about podcast, what takes up your time. But now I think it's running for four years, the competition, Matt? Yep. So in April, we'll reopen for our fifth year. Yep. Fifth year.

[00:38:56] So now you've got things more or less in your hand. But how was the first year running this? I can only imagine how much work. Yeah, I mean, the good news is this was like kind of at the height of COVID. I mean, things were starting to reopen and stuff. But there was, I think we all had a little bit more downtime, free time. So that was kind of a big COVID project for me was getting that competition launched and off the ground. So yeah, to your point, it took up a tremendous amount of my time.

[00:39:24] I mean, we're talking 30, 40 hours a week for six months. And without getting paid is also on top of that. So yeah, it's fun. Another labor of love on the list, Matt. Yes, exactly. Matt, let's talk about podcasting. Because when we started our podcast, you know, most people, they told when you read, you can start a podcast. It's very easy.

[00:39:52] And I always tell people it's really not easy. I mean, it's, there is, of course, a lot of my time, of my free time every week in trying to bring this out. So you're doing this for many, many years, Matt. How has been your experience? How much time it takes up bringing out this podcast every week? Yeah, it's, I would say it's definitely gotten a little bit more difficult as I've improved the quality.

[00:40:16] So you can, you can produce a podcast that's not very good and not take a lot of your time. But I think we can all appreciate the fact that if you want a podcast that has decent audio, has quality guests, has quality topics, is well researched, is runs on a consistent schedule. And then building on top of that, you're, you know, about almost two years ago now, I've started everything on YouTube as well.

[00:40:46] So now I'm editing video, learning how to edit for video and inserting video and still photography into those videos, learning all that stuff.

[00:40:57] And then on top of that, you have to write your show notes and you have to do your social media posts and you have to write your blog posts and you have to do your outreach to your guests and you have to email your guests when they're, so like there's a huge list of things that have to happen for every single week's podcast to actually come to fruition.

[00:41:16] And so, yeah, I mean, for how much time it takes me on any given week, you know, like we were talking before you hit record, you've blamed me for, for queuing up multiple podcasts, interviews per week. But the reason why that's such a good idea is because you need that backlog so that you can do other things in your life.

[00:41:40] So, you know, if you were to record and release in the same week, what happens if you go on vacation or you're just not going to release a podcast that week, right? So, and in my job for teaching workshops, I can be gone for three or four weeks at a time. So I have to have a backlog of two to three months out and that requires me to be recording far out in advance.

[00:42:01] So like this week alone, I've recorded five podcasts just this week and next week will probably be the same. And so on top of that, I'm editing podcasts. And so, yeah, it takes up, I mean, it's probably almost a full-time job if you add all the time up. And so, yeah, it's, if you do, if you're doing it weekly and you're staying on top of it and it's consistent and it's quality. So, yeah, it's a tremendous amount of effort.

[00:42:30] And unfortunately, we're in such a niche space that finding sponsors and monetizing that effort is a huge challenge for me. I don't know about for you, but I've relied heavily on fan support through Patreon. And fortunately, I have a very strong base of incredible supporters who have supported the podcast. Let's talk a bit about your amazing podcast, F-Stop Collaborate and Listen, Matt.

[00:42:58] I think you started in 2017. I did. What sparked the idea to start it? It's very, it relates a lot back to that story I was telling you about. I was starting to get disenchanted with landscape photography. I was finding it to be repetitive. And the amount of effort I was putting in wasn't yielding the results I was expecting in my own work.

[00:43:23] And I was looking for inspiration to improve my photography and stay engaged as a photographer. And at that time, when I searched for landscape photography podcasts, nothing existed. I couldn't find anything that checked the boxes I was looking for in terms of something that was entertaining and fun, but also gave me opportunities to learn new ideas, new techniques, new approaches, things like that. And so I was like, well, I guess I'll create it since no one else has done it.

[00:43:53] And so, yeah, and it's been an incredible adventure. I never, I didn't really have any goals for my podcast when I set out to do it. And it very quickly taught me that through a lot of hard work and consistency, that a lot of really cool things can come from that in terms of developing relationships with other people in the field. Learning, I mean, since I've listened to every single episode of my own podcast multiple times, I've learned a lot too, right? Like I've learned from these incredible guests that I have on the show.

[00:44:23] And like every single episode, there's something that I pick up that I was like, huh, I haven't thought about that before. Or, oh, I need to incorporate that into what I'm doing over here. So I feel like every single week I'm getting at least a little bit something that I'm able to use as part of my arsenal or my toolbox. And that part of the podcast has been incredibly rewarding. So, yeah. Matt, you interviewed so many, I mean, so many amazing photographers.

[00:44:50] If you can pick out a conversation that really stood out for you? Oh, I can only pick one? You can only pick one. All right. I think I'm going to have to go with the conversation I had with Sean Tucker. It's called The Meaning in the Making. And that was about two years ago now, I want to say something like that.

[00:45:14] And part of it for me was really good timing because I think I recorded that podcast about a month or two before I embarked on a 35-day through hike of the Colorado Trail. And the things that I learned through recording that podcast episode, I was able to incorporate into my through hike in terms of how I spent my time on that hike.

[00:45:38] And that was really helpful for me in terms of using that time as a kind of a platform for philosophical thinking and thinking about myself and internalizing things. And so for me, that was a really impactful episode if I had to pick one. So Matt, to round this interview up, we're going to do 10 quick questions with a quick answer. Okay, like a lightning round? Yeah, quick.

[00:46:08] And first thing that pops up into your head. You're ready for it? Okay, I'm ready. Let's do it. One, what's the strangest thing that happened to you while you were out on a hike and you didn't capture it on film? Oh, how about being stalked by a mountain lion in the dark? Because it was dark. I couldn't capture it. Yeah. You ever climbed a mountain mat and you arrived to your spot and you forgot a crucial piece of equipment?

[00:46:37] Never. Oh. Oh, shit. Sorry, man. Like, I am very meticulous when it comes to that kind of thing. Okay. So I know you're a huge fan of the San Diego Padres baseball team. That's true. I am actually, yes. Okay. Then, if you had to pick, you'd rather photograph the World Series or you go to Torres Alpine in Chile with perfect light? Oh, man.

[00:47:07] Man, I'm going to have to go with Patagonia, man. Yeah. Okay. That's really tough, though. That's really, really tough. I was going to tag them, your San Diego Padres, but I won't tag them now anymore. Well, they got to make it to the World Series first, which has only happened once, so. Okay. Next one.

[00:47:33] Matt, what's your secret to convincing your wife to watch almost every baseball game with you? It's honestly her idea. Like, she loves that type of television where she doesn't have to pay super close attention and she can do other stuff while she's watching. So it's an easy way for us to spend quality time together and have a shared experience. And that's something she values a lot. It's a very easy way to facilitate that. You're also into, Matt, a bit of spicy food.

[00:48:03] What's the spiciest plate you ever eat? Okay. So I used to live in Portland, Oregon. And Portland is kind of known as a foodie capital. And it has some of the most amazing Thai restaurants that I've ever eaten before. And there was one that I went to at lunchtime when I worked there. And they have these chili paste oils and things like that on the table that you could try. And I remember just loading it up. And it was like my head was on fire.

[00:48:33] And it was one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had. It was awesome. If you could have superpowers, Matt, to help in your photography, like teletransportation to remote places, weather control, or unlimited battery life, what would you like to be? Oh, come on, man. Weather control all day long. Like, bring some lightning over there. Put a rainbow over there. Yeah, of course. Weather all day.

[00:49:02] If you're out on a mountain in perfect light and a UFO lands near to you, you capture first the alien or the mountain? Oh, man. How about this? How about like an environmental wildlife shot where you have the UFO and the alien with the mountain? So you have both. You can pull it off, yeah? Yeah. Matt, what's your favorite guilty pleasure movie? Guilty pleasure movie?

[00:49:31] I'm going to go with Aliens. Yeah. Classic. It's a tough one. I have a lot of favorite movies like Bravehearts on my list. The Matrix, the original Matrix is on that list, but yeah. Okay. And last one, Matt. One photography gadget you secretly love, but don't want to admit it. I don't want to admit it. Okay.

[00:49:57] I'm going to go with my Nisi close-up filter. It's pretty heavy, but it basically, you put it on your 100 to 400 and you can shoot like one-to-one macro super close up with it. It's pretty cool. So yeah. Done. Matt, you thought about the funniest story that ever happened while you were out giving a workshop? Okay.

[00:50:25] While I was out giving a workshop, that's a tough one, but I can tell you a story of one of the funniest things that ever happened to me. Not on a workshop. Does that work? Mm-hmm. That's okay. Yeah. All right. So I was in California with my brother. My brother lives in Laguna Beach and I was visiting him and he was taking me to this secret cave. And this was a long, this was a few years back, like 2015, something like that. And at the time I was shooting the Nikon D800 and the Full Trinity.

[00:50:52] So I had my F-stop gear bag full of expensive lenses. I was wearing Chaco sandals and we're walking across this steep cliff side, probably, I want to say like six feet over the ocean like this. And I stepped on something that was super slippery, didn't realize it. And I just fell straight into the ocean, backpack first, into the water, into the salt water,

[00:51:19] got completely soaked in the ocean and got out of the ocean and everything was working fine. It was amazing. It was a miracle. But I'm sure I looked ridiculous when I fell in. Mm-hmm. And no need to put any equipment in a bag of rice? No. No, everything was super dry. It was incredible. I have no idea how that happened. No, nothing. No idea. Yeah.

[00:51:48] Matt, it's a pleasure talking to you. You're a very fun guy and I wish I could do a workshop with you next year. I mean, we could have a great time there. Well, if anyone's interested, you can go to munchworkshops.com and check out our upcoming workshops. And Spain is not on your calendar? No. No, I would love to go back to Spain though.

[00:52:10] I did a trip there in 2022 when I won an award for the Memorial Luisa photography competition in Oviedo. And I spent basically like a whole week photographing the Spanish coast and I would go back there in a second. That's amazing. Ah, but not for the food. I remember now you told me. Not the food, man. Nope. Although, so I'm a vegetarian, right? Yes. I'm a vegetarian, man.

[00:52:38] Like everything over there is like Iberico ham and like bacon and like, I'm like, where's my, you know, so it's hard if you're a vegetarian, you know? Okay. Okay. Matt, thanks for this interview. It's been amazing to talk to you. It's amazing getting to know you better all thanks to your podcast really that I really enjoy listening to. Well, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. We'll be in touch.

[00:53:08] You go out now and do your other things, whatever you have to do still. And I'm going to round up with my fourth interview this week. Yeah. Keep it going, man. You got this. We've got this. Matt, we'll be in touch and I see you around. All right. And folks, that's a wrap for our conversation with Matt Payne from hiking up 14,000 foot peaks at sunrise to tackling the weekly grind of podcasting. Matt does it all and somehow still has the time to watch almost every Padres baseball game,

[00:53:37] even when they lose. If you enjoyed this episode with him, be sure to check out Matt's links in our show notes and listen to his F-Stop Collaborate and Listen podcast. And as always, folks, if you liked our episode, give us a review, subscribe and stay tuned for more great conversations with amazing photographers coming up. Thanks for listening. Keep on moving your photography and we'll see you next time on the Camera Coffee Show. Adios.