"Ukraine: Living Inside the Story — Oksana Parafeniuk & Iva Sidash (Part 1)"

[00:00:01] This is the story I did when I was in New York, when I was at ICP. As I told you, it was a very difficult decision for me to go to New York to leave my country. I started thinking about this, and then I found this story about a rehabilitation center where Ukrainian soldiers were coming for the rehabilitation and to get the prosthesis.

[00:00:26] We spent a lot of time just talking or walking or drinking in the bar, and then I realized that they can trust me. This was my first time working with such a difficult topic of rehabilitation, of amputation. I was very worried, like, how to do it. But slowly I just realized that it works because we are connected. Some of them are fighting now. I still keep in touch with them.

[00:00:55] Yeah, for me this is such an incredible example of this Ukrainian spirit that whatever happens, you keep going. Greetings and welcome back to the show. Some photographers travel to distant places to tell stories. Others find themselves documenting the place they call home.

[00:01:23] Because photographing a story is one thing. Living inside it is something else entirely. I'm Tom Jacob and this is the Camera Cafe Show. Today folks, in part one of a special two-part conversation, I am joined by two Ukrainian photojournalists whose work have become deeply intertwined with the story of their own country. Oksana Parfeniuk and Eva Siddash.

[00:01:45] Eva was on our show three years ago, and since then her journey has taken her from documenting the early days of the invasion to studying at ICP in New York and receiving the prestigious Ian Parry Grant. Oksana, meanwhile, is joining a podcast for the very first time, despite her work appearing in major international publications around the world and documenting life in the Ukraine with a strong focus on human stories behind the headlines.

[00:02:10] Together, both photographers continue to document life in the Ukraine at war while living through many of the same realities themselves. In our first part, we talk about how Oksana and Eva found their way into photography, how documenting their own country has shaped the way they see the world around them, and how living through history can change not only the people in front of the camera, but also the people behind it.

[00:02:32] Next week, in part two, folks, we move deeper into the realities of documenting a country at war, the impact on children and families, and the emotional weight of carrying these stories over time. Grab a coffee, settle in, and enjoy this part one of my conversation with Oksana Parfeniuk and Eva Siddash. Welcome everyone to the show, and today it will be a bit of a special one. It might be a bit longer, but stick with us because it will be really worth it.

[00:02:59] Today we have not only one, but two photographers here on the show, both journalists from the Ukraine, both documenting the war, each their own way telling stories. And one of them, Eva Siddash, actually was on the podcast some years ago, and now she's back and we will continue our conversation. And joining her is Oksana Parfeniuk, also journalist working in the Ukraine, and I'm looking forward to hear her story. Eva and Oksana, welcome on the show.

[00:03:29] Thank you so much, Tom. Mm-hmm. So, before we begin, Oksana, you told me in an email, we might have a special guest running in the background today there. We will have your little son, Luca, showing up on the camera? Hopefully not. I close the door to the office, but it doesn't lock. He's with my husband. But we might hear him screaming if he decides he doesn't want to go to sleep or something like that. But maybe, maybe he'll join.

[00:03:58] He's three, turning four soon. Yeah. Maybe he'll join in the end. That would be very nice. Eva, I think your parents had a dog. How is your life now? You have yourself now a dog? No, everything has changed a lot. So, first thing is that I moved to Kyiv. So now me and Oksana, we're in the same city, but I'm from Lviv, as you remember.

[00:04:24] And since the start of full-scale war, I've been traveling a lot through the Ukraine, mostly Lviv, Kharkiv, Lviv. And it was very difficult for me to manage the travel every time. It was difficult for me to live for two cities. So I decided not to live for three cities. But I think it's a good option for me because now I'm in the middle and I can go to my family to see my parents, my sisters.

[00:04:54] And I can go farther to the east and document war. So this is like a good starting point for me. But no dogs, no cats. Actually, I thought that we were talking maybe about cats. Because when we talked with you about cats, I had a mommy, my favorite, the only one pet. My parents have dogs.

[00:05:20] And for me, it was difficult to navigate with him because he was with me like for 18 years. And when I was going to the eastern Ukraine, I had to find someone to be with my cat. And it was very difficult because he was very sick. But I was very happy to have him in my life. And unfortunately, he died because he was old. But this is like a big, very sad tragedy for me because he was with me all the time.

[00:05:49] So basically, when that happened, I realized that now I can travel much more. I can go to Kiev. I can live my life because back then it was really important for me to be with him. And yeah, unfortunately, everything changed. I don't have any other pets now because I feel that my only cat was Tommy and I cannot allow myself to have another cat. Maybe that will change.

[00:06:18] Just like I'm very crazy about him. So far, yes, I'm living without any pets. I don't know why. But she was like, oh, yeah, I'm very happy about that. I don't like to talk. This is true fact. And you figured it out in the first five minutes. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So you girls are both now in Kiev as we are talking. Yes, yes. Okay. And you catch up sometimes for the coffee?

[00:06:47] Not really. We see each other at photographic events, mostly. Like, yeah, gatherings of photographers. It's been a while since we saw each other on any, like, assignments or when we were working. But yeah, I spend most of my evenings with family, so I don't go out too much. Yeah. Yeah. I will need to come to the Ukraine and then we have a meeting in Kiev. No problem.

[00:07:15] Eva, when I talk to you, let me think, it's back in 2022 or 2023. I remember then you were saying you were living day by day, not thinking too far ahead. What feels a normal day now for you? I would say nothing has changed regarding this. Because especially when we talk about the life of freelance photographer,

[00:07:44] you never know when you have other assignments and sometimes they come and they go very fast. So it's better to find the time to make them. But of course, it's difficult to arrange. I would say this is still difficult to arrange everything because the war is happening in this country and you have to navigate, but you cannot plan so much.

[00:08:10] Maybe when we talk about some documentary work, like my personal projects or something like this, here I have a little bit more freedom to choose when I'm free to go and to do my work. But yes, when we talk about the assignments, you never know when you have them. So I would say it's still very difficult to plan tomorrow or weeks ahead.

[00:08:35] I wish I would have this possibility because sometimes it's difficult and tiring to sit and wait or not to do your other work because you never know. But yeah, that's the reality and I just, I got used to this, I would say. And Oksana, your son is growing up inside this reality now. He's aware of what is happening around him? He's aware of some things.

[00:09:01] We have, for example, when there is danger from the air, like missiles or drones, there is air raid alerts in different parts of the country. So we are lucky ones because it's like right outside of our window. By lucky, like when it goes on, it's incredibly loud. So of course, he's very much aware when the air raid alert goes on. And he knows we always take him to the corridor, which will be the safest place in the apartment away from all the windows.

[00:09:28] So he knows when there is air raid alerts, we go to the corridor. Sometimes if there is a big attack, actually, like we are monitoring with my husband, what's happening. If there is actually a big attack on Kiev, then we go down to the subway. We leave very close to the subway station. So he also knows that. I mean, he is very interested in the idea of a drone. So out of all the things, he doesn't understand. I talk to him about what war is in simple ways.

[00:09:56] The possible things, he's the most fascinated by the idea of a drone. So there is like a lot of advertisements all over Kiev inviting people to join different military units or drone units. And every time he sees pictures of drones, he is absolutely like so interested. And he builds from, he has this like Legos and other building blocks. He likes to build drones from this, which is sad.

[00:10:21] But my goal, and just to give a little bit of background for the audience, I was six months pregnant when the full-scale invasion started. And I had, with my husband, we left to Poland. I gave birth in Poland. And then we came back to Kiev when Luka was one and a half months old. And I, of course, was very stressed about the safety situation. And I still am. Like some people say they adjusted to this reality. And I cannot say that I am.

[00:10:50] I take every attack as seriously as I did three and a half years ago. And what I was saying is that my goal, he needs to know about the war, but my goal is for him to be not traumatized. So that's why often when there is an attack in the middle of the night, we also take him to the subway. He's sleeping most of the time, but I don't want him to hear explosions and have this fear. So far, we've managed to more or less protect him from this. But of course, he knows what the war is.

[00:11:19] And actually, my husband is American, so also has a family in the United States. And one time after a trip for Christmas to the United States, we were walking to kindergarten with my son here in Kiev. And he asked me, Mama, why is there no air raid alerts in Mexico? We went also to Mexico. He said, why there is no air raid alerts in Mexico and the United States? So like it is, he understands that there's difference. He would ask, why is there no planes flying? And he loves planes.

[00:11:47] So every time we go somewhere abroad, he loves airports and planes. And of course, here it's not the situation. So yeah, it's like most children. But of course, he never knew a different reality. And when we moved back with my husband, we were like, oh, hopefully by the time he's two or whatever the age is, when kids start to understand things better. We hoped, of course, that this will be over.

[00:12:16] It's not over and far from over, most likely. Well, let's keep hope for now. Oksana. Eva. When we talked years ago, I think it was just a few months into the war in your country. And you talked to me how suddenly everything changed for you. And you felt like you needed to document what was going on in your country.

[00:12:42] For everybody listening, I will have this conversation in the show notes. So please check this out later. Just to have a little recap. How did photography start for you, Eva? This is a very long story. It's difficult for me. The short version. Yeah, I would say that I started with like photography was my hobby. Because before I was working in a tea company. And I totally was working in different field.

[00:13:11] But then I found myself out that there is something more. And I started to discover this. And basically, I began with the street photography. And I moved very fast because I started to be obsessed with this. And it was in 2019. After that, in 2020, 2021, I started working as a photojournalist.

[00:13:39] And when the full-scale war started, I was working a little bit before as a photojournalist. But I switched to freelance and everything was new to me. So I would say that this was a huge learning process for me since then. And still is. But I feel that this experience of four years already gave me this kind of knowledge,

[00:14:07] which I got on practice the most. So that's just was moving really fast to different kind of photography. If you look back to this, Eva, how you remember that version of yourself? That's a very good question, Tom. I was thinking, should I listen to my audio that I was talking to you on the podcast? And I decided that it's too much for me.

[00:14:36] And I realized that, yes, of course, I changed a lot. And I feel we all have changed. Because when you have this very different experience, it just, it's difficult to explain, to be honest. But as a photographer, it's easy for me to say how I changed as a photographer, because I can compare what I was doing back then, what I'm doing now, with whom I work,

[00:15:05] what projects I'm mostly interested in. But when we talk about this kind of change as a person, this is very difficult to explain, because this war has huge impact on each of us. And I can't even imagine what Oksana is going through having this small kid. Because for me, when I think about myself, I always think about my family, about my sisters, about everyone else.

[00:15:35] Or when I talk about my friends, mostly all of them are fighting. And I lost a lot of friends. And it's difficult to understand it now, because you just have to keep going. And I think we don't have time, and I don't have rights to reflect too much now. Because we are still in this process. We are still doing our work, and we are still documenting what we can.

[00:16:05] So that's why I would say that probably I would understand better this huge process, maybe when the war is over. And maybe I will have this time to think. Because now I'm just trying to keep going, because it's just too painful to sit and to think of what has happened so far. I think you explained it very well for a surprise question.

[00:16:33] That was a good question, I know. Oksana, I'd like to go back a bit with you, because I don't know you still. Before photography, before everything else, what kind of girl were you when you grew up? What do you remember the most about those years? I actually got interested in photography relatively early. I guess when I was 18 or 19.

[00:17:00] But before then, I was a very good student in school. Very responsible. Never did anything bad. I was actually bored. If I think about it, every time someone, a lot of like journalists and photojournalists, they like had this like rebellious young years or teenage years. And I'm like, actually, I was a really good girl. Yeah, I was a very good student. But the one thing, I was like good at most subjects,

[00:17:29] but I had no idea what I want to do with my life. So that was one thing that was missing from... And it took me many years to actually get to this career of photojournalists. It took like a long professional and education path, and I tried different things. So yeah. But also, I think, I don't have proof because I didn't think that I want to be a photographer back then. But maybe when I was around... So when I was small, my uncle, my mom's brother,

[00:17:58] he had this professional camera and photography was his hobby. And he sometimes would take family pictures of us. And I remember maybe when I was around 10 or so, we were at the countryside with my grandmother and she was still alive. And he asked me to take a picture of them. So like my grandmother, my mom and him. And I remember holding this camera and taking this photo and it had this tilted horizon. We still have this picture. And it's still my issue, like the horizon often.

[00:18:27] But somehow I think maybe that was just something got in my head. And then later I decided I want to buy a camera and try it as a hobby. It was my hobby for many years. And actually my uncle continued to play some role in it because he had a lot of photo books. And so when I started getting interested in not photo journalism in the beginning, but more like art photography, he would bring... And he lived in Kharkiv, actually. He would bring me these huge photo books on a train so I can look at them and then he would take them back.

[00:18:57] And so anyway, that's just a little piece of the story. But as far as my young years, yeah, I was pretty bored. You were a good eater also? Eater? I don't know. I think I like to eat now more than I like to eat when I was small. Yeah. So at what point did photography become something that more than a curiosity?

[00:19:26] Because I think you were also a fixer first for photojournalists, Oksana. Yeah. Yeah. No, so my photography interest started before I was ever a fixer. As I said, when I was around 19 and pretty soon it was something I was really passionate about. Just like Eva said, you become a little obsessed. But I didn't have a lot of free time because I was studying IT. So I have a master's degree in IT. I also had a part-time job in the office of Fulbright.

[00:19:56] It's educational exchanges with the United States. But somehow I still managed to find time to learn about photography. And at the beginning, I was mostly taking pictures of friends, portraits, some still life. I liked in the beginning self-portraits, something a bit more artistic and staged. Then in 2013 and 14, during my Dan revolution in Kiev, I ended up working as a fixer with foreign journalists for the first time because I quit my job and I didn't know what to do.

[00:20:25] And this is how I discovered journalism. I just, I never really thought that I wanted to be a journalist or photojournalist. And I didn't really have a good understanding that it's even a career or how it works. Being a fixer and all the silence and the war started in Eastern Ukraine and I followed there. This is how I started discovering what journalism is about, what is storytelling. And for some years, even though I had a camera, but I was somehow very insecure and to me, it seemed really difficult

[00:20:55] to bring it up and take pictures of people. And I was just trying to understand how it works. But of course, in the heart deep inside of me, that's what I wanted to do. But I took time to just learn about this journalism overall. And then slowly, in 2016, I finally started working on my own project and slowly started getting my first assignments. So I knew that's what I want to do. It just took me a long time. And for some years, I continued.

[00:21:25] I didn't have a lot of photo assignments, so I couldn't make a living out of photography. I was still continuing to be a local producer with foreign media or translator. And then only since a full-scale invasion, I managed to give it up and just take, just do photojournalism since then. And you both did an amazing job because I have here my list somewhere because you both had pictures published

[00:21:55] and this is just a small list. Washington Post, New York Times, Time, Le Monde, The Spiegel, NBC News, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek, members of the Ukrainian Association of Professional Photographers and Women Photography Collective. Very well done, both of you. How does it feel? You didn't really study photography, but it became your voice and it's now in so many media outlets. Yeah, so we didn't study it in a setting

[00:22:25] like a university, but when you get interested in something, I was studying it from everywhere I could, like from photo books, galleries, internet, other photographers. I tried to attend some workshops every time I could find something that would happen when I could go to. And then I also studied a lot from my husband who is also a photojournalist from like more like an inside job and you keep studying all the time because in the job like this,

[00:22:54] you can't just stop being interested. And I feel very surprised still every day that I can call myself a photojournalist because at some point I didn't believe it's possible for me. And I feel like it's a lot of responsibility, especially considering that we live in a country at war and all the stories we photograph right now are all about war and it's really a huge moral, ethical, all kinds of responsibilities and also just hopefully

[00:23:24] has at least some little impact. Yeah, there is not so many photojournalists, Ukrainian photojournalists and that's why we feel like it's a tremendous privilege but also a tremendous responsibility. Eva, we already touched before how you went from street photography to documentary work. I'd love to pick up a bit where we left it last time because since then you had just

[00:23:53] an incredible amazing journey in this past three or four years. You went to study at the ICP, you won the Ian Perry grant and so many things more. So how have been those last years for you? Yeah, I think that a lot of things have happened thanks to my decision and to because for me back then

[00:24:23] it was in 2023 it was such a difficult decision because I wanted to stay in Ukraine I wanted to keep documenting the war in my country but I just felt I don't have this experience and I need something more to be more effective and maybe that's why I took a risk and I decided to go to New York for actually one year and I'm very happy I

[00:24:53] did this because it world of photojournalism better and I feel it was a life changing event for me because I became a little bit more confident in

[00:25:33] to meet all those people because sometimes it's really difficult to navigate and I feel that photography is still a very lonely journey and when you meet other people when you see how they look at your work how they share what they do it gives you kind of inspiration to keep going and for me this year at ICP actually was something like this

[00:26:02] and of course after winning Ian Perry which is really very important phase of my life because again I met wonderful people these people became my family and thanks to them I was able to do photography more I was able to focus on my own documentary project I believe that I'm very happy to get assignments and I always take them whenever I have it because first of

[00:26:32] all it's good to be able to talk about Ukraine for big medias but also for me it's very important to keep going with my own work because the way I work it's important to take time to have this kind of connection with people I photograph to get into their life and usually assignments are really short and you cannot get into this as

[00:27:02] deep as you want but when you talk about your personal projects you still can understand it possibility to work more on my personal projects well in a minute I'm going to ask you both a bit of backstory to a project I picked a project from both of

[00:27:48] connected to another because for me at least I strive to do this to be in photography not just like the observer or something of course when we talk about photojournalism and all this stuff for sure but when we talk about photography as the world for me this is something deeper and for me in this case I

[00:28:18] when we talk about photojournalism then I would say that it yes of course shaped me in the way I see this world now and in the way I perceive myself and how I see things how I understand it because photography is a wonderful tool that gives you the possibility to understand other experiences which

[00:28:48] make or the pictures we make you can hear other stories you can live their lives through photography and for me this is very precious gift because you start to understand it better you start to understand people better their choices their realities yeah Eva said it beautifully it's 100% both because of course the desire to be a photojournalist comes from interest in humanity and other people's

[00:29:18] lives and the fact that you can open this little window and they let you in and just appreciate this multitude of people like human experience and it became even more living in Ukraine and just living in Ukraine is already a really rich experience in both highs and lows both profound tragedy but also in the middle of this you can find profound happiness as well like all the emotions become really sharp and you know for me yeah I just

[00:29:48] I want to learn about what other people go through and share it with the world I think even in a more profound way each each family all the places you go to all of that leaves a huge mark in your mind in your soul in your memory like all of that inevitably shapes who you are and every conversation you have you think about something and learn and then sometimes you make mistakes about both how you

[00:30:17] photograph or how you hopefully better so yeah definitely both I think I knew the answer but very good girls I picked a project for each of you Eva I would like to step a bit into the project you make the house of one slipper what began this project for you

[00:30:47] so this project is very important for me personally because this is the story I did when I was ICP and I'm always joking that as I told you it was very difficult decision for me to go to New York to leave my country but when I went there I also it was difficult process for me to understand where I am what should I do because

[00:31:17] my first questions were like why I'm here I need to be in Ukraine of course it's wonderful to study and to get other more knowledges but there is the war happening there and I need to be there I need to document what I see like I'm too far from everything I'm too far from my dear people from everything so that's why it took me time to understand that Eva but that's exactly why you're here because you want to do it better

[00:31:47] in better way and more professional way so I started thinking about this and then I found this story about like this rehabilitation center where Ukrainian soldiers were coming for the rehabilitation and to get the prosthesis and I'm saying I'm not joking that so I found my Ukraine in New York in Staten Island because that's where their hub was and

[00:32:15] I'm very grateful for these people and for this opportunity to make this project because I think it made my life there much more easier because I felt like I'm here and in Ukraine even though I'm not but I'm talking about the same topic which is important for me to tell I'm talking about Ukraine I'm talking about these wonderful people and the soldiers like very often saying because we got very

[00:32:44] connected with them with the soldiers who came there and as I told you for me it's important when I work on documentary project to get to know these people to tell about myself to become like more friends than just I'm a photographer and you're the model and we spent a lot of time just talking or walking or drinking in the bar and then when everything started when I realized that they can trust me also

[00:33:13] this was my first time working with such a difficult topic of rehabilitation of amputation and for me I was very worried like how to do it in order to be as much how to do it right ethically not to cross any borders because I understood that this was my first time working with this subject but slowly and slowly I just realized that it works because we are connected

[00:33:42] and I remember the soldiers were saying like Eva we are so happy you are here we feel that you help us heal I really remember this saying and for me it was like basically they were helping me heal there and thanks to them I managed to to be there and to get all this experience which I came for and for me this project began also I remember I was struggling

[00:34:12] a lot because I didn't want to do just another story about rehabilitation there are so many stories about this which is wonderful but I didn't want to repeat others and it took me time to understand like how I want to do it I switched to film I never photographed on film before on medium format so basically I allowed myself to take time to get to know these people to take time to learn some new

[00:34:41] photography for myself that's why I would say that this project is something very special for me and very important for me because it holds all the memories I had back then and it holds what is important for me and how were the conversations with the soldiers because you talked about some very specific moments when they step on the mine when they are very close to death

[00:35:11] they were very open or it was hard for them to talk about this I was trying not to push them that I wanted to take this time for them to be comfortable with me I was asking sometimes very simple questions because I didn't want them to I didn't want to retraumatize them with this memory I didn't want to make it more painful than it is

[00:35:45] they were just keep going and I was not interrupting them and I think in these situations it's just important to leave this space which they can then fill in if they want to and maybe if I ask these direct questions on my own I think I would just receive yes or no

[00:36:15] drinking this coffee and making coffee before the shelling happened or something very personal and I feel that this was a good lesson for me not to not to chase anything but just to let it go as it is on its own and I read that some of them they are determined to go back to the front when they get back to Ukraine yeah some of them are fighting now still keep in

[00:36:45] touch with them I still photograph them when it's possible and yeah for me this is such an incredible example of this Ukrainian spirit that whatever happens you keep going and for me like these people became really very close because that's when I needed them and now we are still in touch we are still meeting each other when they come to Kyiv I was even going to them to their units

[00:37:14] photographing them because I think it's very difficult to realize when the project is over and maybe that's even better not to do and just if there is another opportunity to keep working on the project which is important for you you just go and you do this and that's exactly what I was doing I realized that I really want to see these people I really want to be with them and of course my camera is

[00:37:44] always with me so this is just something that keeps going even now maybe in different way I don't go specifically to their houses or but it's great to keep in touch and to be friends because we kind of overcame a lot together yeah you're like supporting each other it's very nice and that wraps up today's episode with Eva and Oksana folks there's a difference

[00:38:14] between photographing a place and belonging to it some of the most meaningful photographs are made not by people looking in from the outside but these stories over time if you want to like to see more of Oksana and Eva's work folks learn about their project

[00:38:44] or follow their ongoing photography you can find everything back in our show notes and of course folks if you enjoyed this episode have a look at our website don't forget to subscribe leave us a review and follow us on any podcast platform or on YouTube and till next time keep shooting and keep on you