"Adam Docker: The Cinematic Eye Unplugged (Part 2)"

[00:00:04] I was working on a documentary series called The History of Football and there was the opportunity to get an interview with Diego Maradona. The thing was, he wasn't in Argentina, he was in a rehabilitation centre in Havana. Anyway, we turned up, as we entered this hut, we were standing there in a circle, anticipating this meeting with Diego,

[00:00:33] chatting to the manager and then all of a sudden we could hear this splashing upstairs and someone going into song and a tape being played and it turned out it was Diego in a bath singing at the top of his voice. Maria te amo, Maria The song would finish, he'd rewind the tape. Maria te amo.

[00:01:02] And then we all sit in there going, this is really surreal. This is bizarre. And then he just... the music stops and we were just all politely still chatting, trying to find conversation with this manager. and then Diego storms in like a Tasmanian devil. Like, whoa! It was like, I don't know, there's the man with the hand of God right in front of you. This iconic figure. Anyway, we guided him to the other cabin outside

[00:01:32] and as we walked out, it was pitch black. There was no moon, there was no light whatsoever and we wandered outside and he had grabbed my arm and we were talking in Italian, we were talking about natives. And how much he loved maples. And as he was talking, he walked into a tree and then collapsed on the floor and he was screaming all matter of obscenities. Puta madre! Ah, qué puta madre! Everyone was like blind mice. Maradona, Diego, you okay? You okay?

[00:02:01] And we all left in the bath. And hoping that he hadn't damaged his facial features. Greetings and welcome back to the show. You can have all the equipment in the world, but none of it guarantees a great portrait. You can spend days planning the perfect photoshoot,

[00:02:28] only to have everything change the moment you walk through the door. Be it a football star, a boxer or a music god. But perhaps that's when the real creativity begins. I'm Tom Jacob and this is The Camera Cafe Show. Today, folks, I continue my conversation with Adam Docker and we're picking up where we left off in part one. And if you haven't listened to that episode yet, I'd recommend starting there first. We talk about Adam's journey, his travels around the world

[00:02:58] and some of the extraordinary people and situations he's encountered along the way. But today, we're getting further into the mind of the photographer. Adam explains why reading people can be far more important than knowing every button on your camera, why he sometimes deliberately wants to mess up a photograph and how a little movement and blur can bring an image to life. We talk about the power of printing your own work and of course, we have some great stories waiting,

[00:03:27] be it with Rio Ferdinand, Derek Chisora, Cristiano Ronaldo or of course, Diego Maradona. We do a little tour of Adam's studio in Suffolk and what he'd do if Robert Smith from The Cure suddenly walked through the door. Somewhere along the way, we also get into street photography, exhibitions, creative freedom and how photography has helped Adam become more comfortable expressing himself. After 30 years of hiding behind a film camera, taking photography more seriously

[00:03:56] has helped him step out of his shell and grow personally over the last few years. Taking a photograph has to mean something and sometimes it's good to forget the rules and just do your own thing, as the old bass guitar punk rocker in him would say. Grab yourself a coffee, settle in and join me for my second part of my conversation with the amazing Adam Docker. If you shoot all these portraits, Adam, you would say in the end that knowing your camera

[00:04:26] and all this technical stuff around it would be 10% and 90% would be your ability to read people? Yeah, I'm really lucky is that I get to film a lot of these famous faces, interviews with them or I'm filming a promo with them and I'm getting to know them while I'm filming them and at the end of the session, I'll quickly pull my camera out and go, can I quickly take your portrait?

[00:04:54] And most of the time I'll have my light or I have a scene that's already lit so I'll quickly take some snaps and while I'm filming, I'm already thinking about how am I going to take the portrait? So while I'm focusing on that side, I'm still thinking of, should I take the portrait? Should I do it with that light? Or should I put the light behind? And while I'm filming, I'll get an idea, oh, that's a good light or that's a good angle. I'll see something in their face

[00:05:23] or I'll have to change lighting in the middle of filming so I'll see something a little bit different and that then I'll translate into when I take photos or portraits of them at the end. So I'm really lucky to have that access with them. And people like Rio Ferdinand, I've worked with him a few times and I took that portrait of him and then I actually printed it out

[00:05:52] on another shoot I did with him and I showed him and he was like, oh my God, I love this. I'm going to stick this in my kids' room. That's really, that's something. And there was a boxer called Derek Chisora and I took this lovely photo of him with his Union Jack scarf over his face and he was wrapping the thing around his hands and I took a print of that to him on a shoot I did with him, on a second shoot I did with him and he was like,

[00:06:21] oh my God, I love this. He says, I'm going to hang this in my living room because you can film me and do whatever you want. Everyone else, everyone outside of here, I want everyone gone. You can do whatever you want. And that for me really, well it's quite symbolic because it really said the power of photography actually because a photo is for life. Yeah. When you're filming, it's so transient, it's gone, it's done. We watch something,

[00:06:52] that's the end. With a photograph, you print it, you give it to someone, it's really special. Particularly, I've found that if I'm going to film someone for a second or third time, I'll do a print because they'll be blown away and they feel special and they give you better access. But it's not only that, but that photo means something to them. And you know that you've taken a photo of someone and they're going to probably hang that up

[00:07:21] for the rest of their life. They're going to have that in a room somewhere and that's it forever. And that's quite special. Yeah. Like the photo of Sebastian at the top, that will always be there. If that was a moving image, that would have been longer gone. Yeah. And I think that's the power of photography. It's when you print it, it's that tangible, very special, meaningful piece of art

[00:07:50] that will always remain. Now, I cannot let you go, Adam, without talking, of course, of one of the most famous football players. He might not have the pictures you took of him in his house, but I want to hear the story anyway. Havana 2001. Talk me through it. Talk me your experience with Maradona. So,

[00:08:16] I was working on a documentary series called The History of Football, which was essentially meant traveling around the world again, sitting down with famous players from the past. Pele, Zizinho, the Iran team from 1980, whatever, 82,

[00:08:46] I can't remember. The Ghanaian Black Stars, all matter of teams and players. And to really try and capture the historical significance of football, players like Alfredo Di Stefano got to meet and spend time with him. And Eusebio classics. And there was the opportunity to get an interview with Diego Maradona. The thing was,

[00:09:16] he wasn't in Argentina. He was in a rehabilitation center in Havana. He had escaped. I think there was some issues with, he had with journalists at the time in Argentina. There was some furor. He took out a gun and pointed it at the journalists and he had to escape the country, I think. That's essentially what he had to do. And Fidel Castro said, come and stay in Cuba. So, the production

[00:09:45] knew that I was already half Italian, which was a bonus. They didn't want to send a full English crew to Havana to interview him. There was also a producer who was half Spanish and they had an Argentinian cameraman bring all the equipment from Argentina into Cuba because they had an agreement so there was no need for carnets or special paperwork. So, we could just enter Cuba on a visitor's visa and do our job

[00:10:15] under the radar really. an interview straight away. We were there for, I think, a week but it turned out that the money that the production had paid him which was around about £30,000 hadn't cleared his Swiss bank account. So, we had to wait for that to clear so we would sit by the phone in our hotel every single day

[00:10:44] waiting for it to ring. And of course there were no mobile phones in Cuba at the time so we literally had to sit in a hotel room all day in this lovely gorgeous weather in this incredible city just sitting there waiting and waiting for the manager to call us. I think it was on the sixth day eventually he was like, yeah, come down, come to the compound. So we drove over there it was around about lunchtime and we turned

[00:11:13] up and the manager greeted us. He invited us to have some lunch and then said, oh by the way Diego isn't ready for the interview he doesn't want to do it now. Can he do it later on tonight? And we were like, look, we're leaving first thing in the morning. Is this guy bluffing? And we'd heard so many horror stories of all these TV production companies or Gary Lineker I think tried to get an interview with him and Maradona had ghosted everybody.

[00:11:43] So at the front of our mind was like he's going to do exactly the same thing to us. He's going to completely stonewall us and we're going to go empty handed. Anyway, we went back to the hotel and we sat by the phone and at 10 o'clock at night we got the call from the manager who says, come now, come boys, quick, he's ready to do it. We're like, oh okay. So we bombed it down in the middle of the night. There was no electricity I think at the time. I think there was a big power cut and so everything was pitch black.

[00:12:14] And we drove to the outskirts of Havana to this really bizarre rehab center. And what we had done earlier in the day was we had set up an interview place and all the lights in one of the adjacent cabins to where he was staying so that it was all ready to go. Anyway, we turned up and as we entered this hut, there was a, so you'd walk in and there

[00:12:44] was this big living room and there was the, it was like the settees, chairs made out of cane, really cheap and then a huge television. And on top of the television was a photo of Caniggia, who was a teammate of Maradona's with long blonde hair. Just a photo of him. And it was so bizarre. There was no photos anywhere. Just a photo of Canidja on top of this television, which coincidentally

[00:13:13] happened to be having a Boca Genius game playing. And the place was empty. There was nothing personal to it. So we were standing there in a circle anticipating this meeting with Diego, chatting to the manager, myself, the cameraman from Argentina and Luis, the producer. And then all of a sudden we could hear this splashing upstairs and someone going into song and

[00:13:42] a tape being played. And it turned out it was Diego in a bath singing at the top of his voice. Maria, te amo. Maria. The song would finish, he'd rewind the tape. Maria, te amo. Over and over and over again it went, I think for about 20, 30 minutes. And we all sit in there going, this is really surreal. This is bizarre. He's upstairs in a bath, singing

[00:14:12] away to himself, splashing away, imagining him with rubber duckies or something. And then he just, the music stops and we're just all politely still chatting, trying to find conversation with this manager. And then Diego storms in like a Tasmanian devil. It's like, whoa! It was like, it was, I don't know, it was the most, I think you're there because you've,

[00:14:41] and as an England fan, there's the man with the hand of God right in front of you. This iconic figure. And doing this job, you become quite immune. You're not exactly starstruck or you get to meet lots of famous people. Yeah, it's a famous person. It's like, oh, wow, that's cool. But with Maradona, it was just something different. I think there was this iconic status about him, even while he was alive. We were all

[00:15:11] quite awestruck and he was just talking nonstop. We do wonder whether he wasn't quite recovered from his drug rehab. But anyway, we guided him to the other cabin outside. And as we walked out, it was pitch black. There was no moon, there was no light whatsoever. And we wandered outside and he had grabbed my arm and we were talking in Italian, we were talking about Naples and how much he loved Naples. And as he was talking, he walked

[00:15:41] into a tree and then collapsed on the floor. And he was screaming all matter of obscenities, and everyone was like blind mice, you okay? You okay? We were lifting him up and hoping that he hadn't damaged his facial features. So we got him safely into the other cabin and sat him down and

[00:16:10] had a three, three and a half hour interview with him. And yeah, he spoke about everything. It was quite an intimate interview and he wasn't shy and responding. Very strongly opinionated man. And his last send off, his last bit of the interview was he looked down the camera and he said, see this hand? I dedicate this to the Scots,

[00:16:40] the Welsh and the Irish. And that was the end of the interview. And after that, I brought 11 Argentina tops with me and I got him to sign all of them, which I handed out to family and friends. And then I managed to take a few snaps with him. And again, it was where I'd filmed the interview. Even the interview, I'd put this white line behind him.

[00:17:10] So I thought it was quite was symbolic to him. And yeah, it was a quiet nod to his hobbies. And yeah, so I managed to take this portrait with this white line behind him. It's very contrasty, shot on film. I can't remember what film it was. Yeah, that's the story. We went home very full of dopamine. Yeah, I can imagine. How much time you got to take the pictures after the interview?

[00:17:40] Five minutes maybe? No, actually, we spent, I think we spent another, God, we were there until about three o'clock in the morning. So we spent another hour with him. We were just hanging around. We had some beers, chatting. I think he just liked, it was really weird because even though he was very, he was keeping all the press out, we were there for a special documentary and the fact that we had paid him.

[00:18:10] I think he treated us a little bit differently, I like to think, and he enjoyed a different bit of company, chatting to some new faces and not the usual people around him. Yeah, it's a lonely existence sometimes. So you have this shirt also framed in your garage? I do indeed, yeah. I've got the Maradona, Iran,

[00:18:40] and Pele. Nice. Yeah. I have to come to Suffolk and see your amazing studio and see all these framed pictures on your wall. One day, definitely. One day. Adam, I will ask you a moment about gear, but of course we spent some time talking about your photography today, but filmmaking has been this major part of your life. Music videos, FIFA, UEFA, Samsung, Google,

[00:19:09] and you made also some short documentaries. I enjoyed looking at them at your website. I enjoyed What's Wrong with Raymond, Dear Hearing World, and The Deep Breath. I would like to go into it, but then we have a very long podcast. What I want to ask you, Adam, does your experience as a cinematographer change the way movement in a still photograph?

[00:19:39] So when I take a photo, I think one thing that has been something that's been quite strong in what I want from a photograph, I don't want something standard. I want to, am I allowed to swear? Can I swear? You can swear, yeah. Sometimes I want to fuck it up. I want to make it look shit, and I want to really push the ISO, I want loads of

[00:20:09] grain, I want to shoot it really flat and then see what I can get out of it. I don't show a lot of those photos, but for me that's part of the experimentation of it. I think movement for me, so for example, like in the recording studio yesterday with Boxer Rebellion, it was really interesting because you begin, oh, here's a photo, and I'm like, no, I don't like this, this is boring, it's dull, it doesn't tell a story. Yeah, I think certain locations, like I said before, sometimes a

[00:20:38] place is just, wow, perfect, bang. Other places, how can I give, like this band, they're in the middle of recording, they're doing this with instruments, how can I give them a bit more life, a bit more oomph, make it feel like they're going from one place to another, make it feel like there's energy in that music, in the sound, in their movement, in their thought process, in everything what's surrounding

[00:21:08] us in this studio. And that kind of shutter drag it, put a flash, always three-quarter light it and shoot into the light and get something really dramatic with them. At the same time, that's been my thing is, when I'm taking these portraits, I'm moving, so I'll stay focused, dead center with them. And as I'm taking it, I'll have my flash go, and I might have it at a 15th or 13th, but I'll move.

[00:21:38] They will stay in focus while everything else moves in the background and like that because I don't want the background just to be stayed. It's got to have a bit of life to it, like you see it. And I suppose that comes from my cinematography and filming. And also, because I'm traveling a lot, everything's always in movement, in motion. I'm taking photos out of the side of a taxi window, or even when I'm driving, I'm taking photos. You say admit that.

[00:22:09] But I can grab my camera and take a picture of something in movement. And as well, the other thing for me is like with street photography where there's millions of people taking street photography. Millions. Everyone's doing it. And it's all about this. Everyone's taking that photo of someone. Whereas I think for me, it's like, okay, not that I want to do something different, but I'm really conscious of, am I allowed to show their faces? What in 10 years time, can someone sue me for that photo because they're in that photo because of the way

[00:22:38] things are going? I don't know where we stand anymore with this. So when I'm taking street photos, it's more about, yes, there is a scene and there might be a story happening, but as well I try and do something with it so you can't quite make out the face. So you can make it out, but there'll be a story with it. For example, there was these two kids, I was walking in Antwerp and I came across these two kids in the middle of the road

[00:23:08] with boxing gloves fighting and I was like, oh my God, this is like going back in time, like 50 years, 60 years ago when kids played on the street and it was such an amazing thing to see. It was like, wow, you don't see this in Europe. And one of the parents was there and I said, do you mind can I take the photo? And they're like, yeah, sure. And I got someone I was with to hold a flash and I just took a picture of them boxing each other in the middle of the road. And I love that photo because it shows that childhood innocence and we're not able to capture because we're not allowed

[00:23:38] to film kids. But so then my thought is, how can I do it? So you don't see them, but you know that they're kids. And also because you're conscious of, if I'm taking photos of kids, do people think that all those horrible laws that you think? You don't know what people might take from it. So you're trying to capture the beauty of something, but what if I do something different? Just knock it off a bit, add some shutter and distort it so you

[00:24:07] can't see their face. So that's been my approach to street photography and people on the street. Especially if, the other thing as well is like I'm very conscious of asking their commission now, whereas before I just used to take it and now I've been a lot more aware and a lot more sensitive and self-aware of, hang on a minute, would I like that? If someone came up to me with a photo of me, would I like it? No, I wouldn't. I'd be quite pissed off.

[00:24:37] So it's about putting yourself in their shoes and I think that's what you're aware of. I think it's about being respectful to other people. Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing as well, when you're going to third world countries, I think what's really important is to give something and leave something behind for them. I think that's really important. You don't just go there and quickly take a photo and then just walk off. I think you always do that.

[00:25:07] Just a little gear talk, Adam, because I know people listening always like it. If we talk photography, what's your main camera you're using today? I've got the GFX 100S and my go-to lens is the 50mm. Okay. So that's my setup and I've got a variable ND on the front so that allows me to do my slow shutter if you need to.

[00:25:38] I've always got my, I just found this, I bought this the other day, I'll just love it. This little Godox flash, trigger flash, really small. And I say I'm not really into camera porn. I don't really care about, it's about what you do with it. Yeah. It's not about what you got, but again, obviously you understand that this is amazing because it's 100 megapixels and then you've got some really

[00:26:07] lovely lenses and if it wasn't for that, you wouldn't get it. Do you get the pictures that you take? Yes and no, but it's not all about the gear. I think I've just always, I've always loved shooting on medium format and the feel of that. Then I have to remind you that I told you I have bought now this Mamiya RBA 67

[00:26:38] to shoot project in film and you told me that I would rather now spend my money on the project and not in film. Exactly, yeah. Yeah. I've got a Pentax 67 sitting somewhere and that's a beautiful camera. Yeah. the cost of the roles and the cost of development and then the cost of, and also such a monster to carry around with you. Yeah. I think if you're that way inclined, I think if

[00:27:07] you want to go into really slow photography, you know what you're getting and it's very, yeah, absolutely. but I think I found that the way I take photos, it just didn't work. I could stop, I might have maybe moments where I could use it, but other times I just found that I was just carrying it and it just wasn't me. I need the immediacy. I've already got everything in my settings. I know I can just lift it up

[00:27:37] and shoot what I want to do. And again, like I said, the cost of the film and everything, I'd rather put that towards the trip. Yeah. But I think I see this as a personal project where you just put money inside just as something else. Yeah, of course. It's not something to make money out of. No. Talk to me about your new studio in your Victorian primary school house there in Suffolk. What does it look like?

[00:28:07] It's a Victorian primary school that built I think 18, 1870s, 1880s, something like that. And it's the living room. I've got really large open plan living room with kitchen which used to be the assembly room or a classroom, a large classroom. and it's got the old Victorian features like the heaters and the roof,

[00:28:37] really high ceilings, lovely big windows. And I think the main reason for buying this was you've got space to bring people to take their portraits here. if you wanted to have a large table to be able to work on with your prints, this space and that's what I've always wanted all my life is just being able to have that space. And I've been very

[00:29:06] lucky to find this. And it's very quiet around here, lots of parking. So it's great to be able to invite a production or if they want to film interviews or if someone needs portraits done, really nice place here. My partner, she's a hairdresser. So we have a hair salon studio outside in the garden as well. So it's very equipped. It's all equipped. It's a great plug. You see,

[00:29:36] it's all set up. It's all set up, yeah. So yeah, I just need to get people here. It will work out. We didn't talk about awards and all these things. You've been awarded by Portrait of Britain, Portrait of Humanity, Lens Culture, Life Framer. Then you exhibited your work, Motion and Emotion, London, Berlin, Ireland, France, I think, and of course now also in Suffolk.

[00:30:07] Yes. How does it make you feel? Do you know, I love the, I think like for most of us, when we exhibit our work, and when you have people come and look at it and feel something from your piece, and they're touched by it, that means a lot. That's what it's about, isn't it? That's ultimately, all us artists, that's all

[00:30:35] we crave for is that validation that people appreciate the work that we're doing. I think having it on display in a small art center in a very small town called I, which I thought was perfect. It was a perfect name for a town to be hosting a photographic exhibition. And I did my own PR and marketing for

[00:31:05] it as well, and I got in contact with the BBC. The BBC had me on a live, on their news channel, on their website, and on a radio. So that garnered quite a lot of interest. People came from all around the county, which was like, wow, okay, it's quite special to have people travel two, three hours to come and see your work. And then you meet them afterwards, buying your book, your postcards, your posters,

[00:31:35] your prints, really satisfying. Yeah. It means something. And I think you come away thinking, yeah, I'm doing the right thing. Because there's a lot of times we all doubt what we're doing and good enough. Is it all right? Is it something still? Yeah. So if you go to the pub now there, Adam, they call you the photographer? I don't know what they call me. I don't know. I'm not, it doesn't,

[00:32:05] that stuff doesn't bother me. You didn't make an impact still there in the pub, Adam. I don't know what the impact is. As long as it's positive and not negative. Of course, yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Adam, you once thought becoming a rock star was going to be your life. Then you didn't become one, but you ended up traveling the world, meeting the most amazing people, and building a pretty

[00:32:35] extraordinary life. To bring this full circle, Adam, him. So imagine Robert Smith from The Cure, he walks into your studio tomorrow and asks you to take his portrait because he listened to this amazing podcast episode. You've got him for an hour and he only wants the bare minimum of props. How would you portray him in a way that gives a special meaning for you?

[00:33:05] Bloody hell. Do you know what? You're really good with questions. Sometimes these questions are a little a bit too difficult to answer. Do you know? I don't know because like I said before, it depends what he's like. It's how I am with him as well. It's how he is with me. That's what will dictate the story. It's not I can't come up with, oh, I'm going to do this and this and that.

[00:33:36] Those this and this and that can also easily just not work. So you can come up with the most incredible ideas and then you meet this person and it just doesn't click. That idea doesn't click with them and you have to pivot and go for something completely different. And I've been listening to the audio book by Tim Pope who was the director of all the Cure

[00:34:06] videos and David Burley and Neil Young. interestingly Tim Pope also is a director who works in the present and it's about as much as he can prepare there's other things, there's spontaneity of the moment that's equally just as important. And that's also been my life with documentary work and just living, you have to hear and listen to

[00:34:35] what's going on, there's your story, oh it's over there. But then tomorrow it might change and you're like shit, oh it's that. But if now we're going with this, how does that tie in with that story there? So you're going to have to try and find a way of tying it all in together. So you have to constantly think all the time while you're filming and telling that story. So again if Robert Smith walked in, I'd have to just, I know I've only got an hour and a half, but I'd have to gauge him really quickly, see what

[00:35:05] he's like with me, see what I've got at my disposal, how he's dressed, how he looks, how he feels, whether he's still hung over or not. And just if he wants to, if he has an idea in mind, I'm just always gauging. It's always about gauging. I remember once they called me up and said we're going to shoot to Madrid, we've got a shoot with Cristiano Ronaldo, we're going to do this, we're going to do that, we're going to hire all these lights, we're going

[00:35:35] to, Real Madrid has said that we've got the big main room in the press centre and I want to do this and we're going to get him to walk from here to here, from there to there. And I was being sent all these references, yeah, what do you think of that? I was like, yeah, okay, we'll need this light, we'll need that. Anyway, we turned up at Real Madrid and we've got a truck coming with all this gear. We walk upstairs, press officer says, okay, you've got 10 minutes with him and you're in that little room over there. And the

[00:36:04] producers and directors were like, what? Hang on, can we not have that? No, that's busy, you've got the small locker room which was tiny, it's probably smaller than this room. And we had to change and I had to come up with completely different, the responsibilities on you really to try and make it look good. But that's what happens all the time. So I think you have to, and I think that's something I try and part, because I've been running a few workshops as well with people that come in, is I'll

[00:36:34] start with something really simple, how to light just using daylight. how to take pictures just using daylight, a black cloth, and then bit by bit you add to that in different locations. Start thinking about your angles or you start thinking about the texture on the walls or the furniture that you've got and look at it and then positioning the person differently and how light suited that person better. But if you put that person

[00:37:04] there, that wouldn't have looked as good. I had a workshop where I had three models, and this young girl, the look that really suited her was the more glamorous lighting look, whereas the guy was something a little bit more contrasty and then the older lady was something a little bit more natural. It changes all the time and it's to be aware of that. I always say to young photographers, don't get bogged down on this

[00:37:33] closed-minded idea of how you're going to take something because things will always change and you have to be fluid and open and organic and ready to move and change. change. And I think that's my biggest kind of, if I have to impart anything from my experience, it would be that, is to think on your feet and be prepared that it might not look right, it might not be right,

[00:38:03] or things might not go according to plan. It's amazing advice, Adam, but I'm only a little bit disappointed you didn't tell me that I thought about this all my life if Robert Smith walked in my studio. No, no, do you know what, sometimes it's best not to meet your heroes and he's the only, I spent a few years working for MTV and he's the one person I've never seen. And so I'm quite glad I've not met him. Don't want to ruin

[00:38:33] the illusion. No. Adam, thank you so much for joining me here today. It's been an absolute pleasure. We had a lot of laughs too. I'm not sure if we talked a lot about photography, today. I think we managed it. I have to listen again to the episode. I think what we spoke about, I think what came out of me from today is it's not about photography or the technical aspects of photography. I think another question is why we photograph and it's the

[00:39:02] emotion that we get from it and the question, why am I photographing this? What does this mean? What does this subject mean? Meeting this person with a story and it's all about story, isn't it? It's a story and it's about someone has a special something and that's why we're intrigued and magnified to go and take photos of them. There's something special about them. We're attracted

[00:39:30] to that aura about someone and I think that's the story today. the technical and the physical aspect of it is secondary. You asked me a question about what I've learned in the last that I didn't know when I was 20. I think one of the things that has been really important and I think one of the crucial elements of photography,

[00:39:59] I've spent 30 years filming and the film, the video camera has been my shield, has been there to protect me. I don't need to show myself to the world. It's been my shield in really difficult situations. I feel empowered by it but I've never had to

[00:40:28] talk about my film work, very rarely. I think photography, one thing that has done, it's made me come out of that shell. People want to talk about the photographs that you've taken because there's a story behind it. It's captivated people. I've had a woman come into an exhibition

[00:40:57] in Portobello and she walked out crying her eyes out, which for me was bizarre. When I asked her why, she was really taken by it. Some people are, some people really love the work that you

[00:41:34] love and this photography has been a huge journey in self-awareness, in being able to communicate, in expressing what you're trying to do, what you're trying to achieve, doing things like this where you're having to essentially do something that I've always hated doing,

[00:42:01] which is being in front of a camera. I've always preferred to be behind the camera that I can hide. And it's quite challenging sometimes. But I think it's forced me to challenge myself into opening up, into communicating more, to express myself more vocally.

[00:42:28] And I suppose that's why a lot of the questions that you've asked sometimes are a bit hard because it's difficult. I probably find it easier to say them visually or to maybe write them down. But when it comes to expressing them like this, it's very difficult. And I'm thankful of photography for taking me on that journey. And it's an important one of self-expression. And I think

[00:42:56] like you said earlier, it allows you to meet people, communicate, tell stories, and allows you to think about yourself and your role in other people's lives, your role in this bigger picture, and what you're leaving behind and the stories that you want to tell. You're enjoying this new version of you, Adam?

[00:43:24] Yeah, I think it's about time. It's been a long time coming. And sometimes it happens to us later in life. There's things that we're aware of that clicks. I found you at the right moment then, Adam. I think we could have a good conversation. And if we ever make it on a trip, you are a very easy person to talk to, Adam, with or without photography. And a very honest person. Thanks, man. Appreciate it.

[00:43:54] Yeah. So this is quite an ending now to the podcast. Yeah. I think photography for me is very emotional. It's really tied into what I was saying earlier where, why am I taking this photo if I'm doing something personal? Sometimes I walk out with a camera. I have no interest in taking photos. I'm not one of these people that goes out,

[00:44:18] I can't do that. For me, it's about, I have to connect with that something and it has to mean something to me, or I have to be inspired by something, or something has to percolate an idea or thought, or there's a meaning to it. I can't just take it for taking its sake. There's a reason. There's always a reason. There is no point otherwise. Sometimes people, when I go out to make pictures for myself,

[00:44:47] even if I travel, even if it costs you a lot to get there, even if it costs you time, if I get back and people ask and I say, no, I only took five pictures. Yeah. I say, why? I say, because I know the other 300, I'm not going to. So it doesn't matter if I click the shutter or I didn't. This five, I know I'm going to like, and it's enough.

[00:45:11] So true. So true. And I think like in today's age of we're flooded with content. A lot of all these trendy YouTubers, this is how you take pictures. Oh, you should do it this way. It's just, it's just noise. It's just bollocks. It's so much. Oh, you've got to do like this. Oh, you've got to shoot it at F this, that. Oh my God. Just shoot it how you want to shoot it.

[00:45:37] Just feel what you want to feel. And that's the thing about photography for me is like lifting a paintbrush and painting. If you're going to paint a stick man, that's your expression. And if you're going to photograph in that way, get your basics right. Of course, know your basics, but then after that, do what the hell you want and express yourself. There's no, shouldn't be limitations

[00:45:58] to any of this or structures or boundaries. I think what I teach in the workshop is once you know how that works and why it works like that with your exposure, your shutter, your standard, technical, basic knowledge, once you know that, you're free. You can do whatever

[00:46:25] you want. How and why we take these portraits and how we light in all these different ways. And it doesn't matter if someone had an iPhone or if someone had this, if they were shooting black and white or shooting in color, it all boils down to the very basics. And sometimes I've had young people come in where they're learning media studies and they've got professors teaching them that, oh, they've got to have the camera strap all the time. Make sure you've got your

[00:46:53] camera. It's like, if you don't want to shoot with the camera strap, don't shoot with the camera strap. It's up to you. It's what makes you feel comfortable because even your body movements are your expression. If you can't work with a strap, don't work with a strap. Yeah. And I think, yeah. So I like that there's certain rules to keep, but also at the same time, there's probably the old punk in me where it's like, break, break the rules. You've got to break the rules and see where you can go.

[00:47:23] We will talk about that when we meet up for a beer in a pub. I think it's a better talk with beer, this. Great. Well, thanks for having me. Have a nice evening still. I see you around and let's keep in touch because Suffolk is not so very far away. And yeah, we will meet up one day. Absolutely. Looking forward to India. Let's keep this in mind. Have a great evening still, Adam, and I see you next week or something.

[00:47:52] We will be in touch. Bye. Bye-bye. Thank you, everyone. And that wraps up today's episode with Adam Dock, folks. For Adam, photography has become much more than taking pictures. It's about connecting with people, expressing himself and finding the freedom to experiment, break a few rules and do things his own way. And perhaps most importantly, it's a journey that taught him a thing or two about himself along

[00:48:18] the way. And while the rockstar dream didn't quite happen, I think Adam has found a pretty good alternative. Although he did have to survive a rather few difficult questions from me tonight. Adam, it's been a pleasure having you on the show. Folks, if you'd like to see more of Adam's work, check out his website and social media. You know you'll find all the links back in our show notes. And of course, if you enjoyed this episode, have a look at our website. Don't forget to subscribe,

[00:48:46] leave us a review, and follow us on any podcast platform or on YouTube. Until next time, keep shooting and keep on moving your own photography forwards. I'll see you next week here with another great guest. Adios!