“Rain Hayes: Capturing the Invisible — IR & UV Photography”

[00:00:00] So if I can offer people just a little bit of a distraction from that and Show them something that is beautiful or that makes them say, oh wow, then That's really what I want to do is like I'm fully okay not having a message in my work

[00:00:19] there's there's nothing lofty or Intellectual or political or anything like that. No messaging in my work. It's just like oh my gosh Look at this. Isn't this cool? Isn't this pretty and I for me that's that's The whole story and that's enough is that beauty?

[00:00:45] Greetings and welcome everyone to another episode of the Camera Cafe Show your go-to podcast for all things photography I'm your host Tom Jacob and yes We have an amazing master class waiting for you today and therefore as you can see we have a good 50 minutes plus episode today

[00:01:02] But hey folks, this is a podcast This is not your timeline on Instagram or a 90 second TikTok video you casually flick through We make this podcast to enjoy and to inspire you in this amazing creative outlet, which is photography Just listen to it

[00:01:17] Like I do whenever you can hit the pause or the stop button and come back to it another day That's just the beauty of a podcast That said let's move on Today we welcome a rain haze on our show a visionary photographer and a Kelby one instructor

[00:01:33] Renowned for a captivating work in infrared and ultraviolet photography Her unique approach and creative vision have set her apart in the photography community Making her an innovator in exploring light beyond the visible spectrum

[00:01:48] In this episode rain will share her journey from traditional photography to mastering these specialized techniques Along with her practical experiences and the fascinating projects she has undertaken Whether you know how to take those IR and UV pictures or you are just a curious enthusiast your infrared treat

[00:02:08] So grab your favorite drink sit back and get ready to be inspired by the amazing rain haze on the camera cafe show Let's get rolling Hello there the lady of the unseen world How's Oakland Bay today doing rain It is fantastic very warm

[00:02:30] Overly warm late spring day. I guess we're technically into meteorological summer now So happy summer to you and everyone else. It's a great time for indoor photography. I

[00:02:44] Was going to say it's a great time for bug photography because I think last time when we talked you mentioned something Okay, I will try to make bug pictures. I will try to find the bee. So how far we are in this process rain

[00:02:57] Well, I went out one day. I was very successful in photographing a lot of bees and At my garden location there happened to be an entomologist who? Specializes in bees who was there at the same time also taking pictures

[00:03:13] So I got to learn a lot from an expert about the varieties of bees in our area So it was great timing and way behind on processing all of those bee images as per usual But I'd like to go out again and keep trying

[00:03:29] I'm photographing them in infrared and so they're a little a little different You know focus is a little bit soft and they almost come off a little more abstract Unlike the bug images that I see you doing your bees are

[00:03:45] Incredible all of this pollen everywhere and super detailed and high color Yeah, I always get a little Motivated when I see your bee images online If you just sit still long enough they will come rain. No problem

[00:04:01] I have a friend who I just discovered has beehives in their backyard and So I'm I think I'm gonna go hang out in their backyard and hope that none of the bees Dislike what I'm doing there

[00:04:17] Just be careful for odd looks because sometimes we have to lie flat on the floor or make strange Movements and if there's any passerby he will look very curious It's a backyard so hopefully no one will see me

[00:04:31] Okay, they don't want to see you rain. Tell me a bit a bit about yourself Photography it was something you went to study or was like a happy coincidence you found years later somewhere

[00:04:44] I grew up with the understanding that a person should just own a camera the way you should own a bicycle it's just kind of a tool of life, so I had a Pentax 1000 when I was growing up and shot film and Learned how to process and print I

[00:05:02] went years without really taking photography very seriously, but I still owned cameras and I Decided to take a little photo adventure one weekend and drove up the coast of Northern, California and just took pictures of the the places I was visiting and

[00:05:23] I just kind of had this thought if you know I could do this every day for the rest of my life and not get bored So I've been trying to move closer to that goal ever since then for the past six or seven years

[00:05:37] I've been focusing almost exclusively on infrared photography Which is a whole separate adventure that I've gotten really deeply into as you know, and It's not something that I ever really had an opportunity to study in school outside of the film class that I took as a

[00:05:55] You know fourth grader nine ten years old but I have gravitated toward it now because it is so easy to Create a finished product a finished image in such a short amount of time It's overwhelming the number of images that you can take and

[00:06:15] just pick the best one when there's probably like ten more that you could choose as well and Continually get better. I sometimes say and I'm not trying to be cynical but I sometimes say that I Do photography because it's so much easier than painting

[00:06:31] But it's really true when it takes six months to make a painting and then six months more for it to dry You're months into a project before you know, if you even like it and it's just one single image

[00:06:45] So I get a lot of satisfaction out of being able to make images in You know, you could do several a day my editing process is pretty involved

[00:06:55] so it takes me a lot longer than someone who is doing regular color photography, but even still it feels very quick and Like almost instant gratification and so I enjoy it as an activity and I enjoy it as a medium a way to

[00:07:13] Kind of do a creative thing and I also love looking at other people's images We're all basically using the same equipment But everyone there are so many different styles and so many different points of view

[00:07:25] but I find it really interesting to be part of the photography community and have access and Interaction to everyone who's doing something similar but also totally different as me You mentioned of course infrared and then you went on to have your own Kelby one class online

[00:07:45] About infrared photography. It says explore the hidden world of infrared photography. How can that about? So a couple of years ago, I made a friend through social media named Rick Salmon He is an amazing photographer with a long career

[00:08:03] He's an educator. He's worked in so many different genres of photography the travel wildlife Portraiture so many different things. He's done like underwater photography and you know used to do print magazines and

[00:08:19] he has sort of become a mentor for me and he made an introduction for me with the folks at Kelby one and They had a little bit of infrared material on their website sort of some

[00:08:33] Special sessions and discussions about it, but they didn't really have like a full proper class so I worked with them I went down to Florida where their offices are located in the Tampa Bay and They produced the class. It was a lot of fun. We went to

[00:08:50] Miyaka State Park and it was really a wonderful experience like the Kelby one folks are so cool and laid-back and You know, they do great work. I love the way that they produce their classes and If you haven't checked out Kelby one as a member It's very comprehensive

[00:09:12] They have some of the best photographers in the world in my opinion teaching across so many different genres and for a really Reasonable very low membership fee You have access to like hundreds of classes for anything that you want to learn plus all of their blog content and

[00:09:33] they do you know, they have a whole bunch of different special programs and they do a weekly podcast and it's very satisfying to feel like I'm helping other people to Explore and check out something that they might not have otherwise and

[00:09:51] Also to kind of join me in this straight false color and glowing foliage and things like that Like it's you know, everyone is welcome And I'm always super happy when we have more people that are sharing their images online

[00:10:05] And and they're really having a good time with it now you took me a bit by surprise but mentioning Rick Simon because By coincidence have him on my list to contact him for the podcast this year

[00:10:17] I didn't do it still so Rick if you listen to this, I will get an email out to you Yeah, Rick's awesome. So I hope you do get to talk to him Rain apart from what you mentioned you also run workshops and you also do print sales

[00:10:31] You have a studio at your own house where you print your own pictures. I do so before I was a photographer I worked in several other Mediums, I like I mentioned I was a painter I also have a long history of sewing dresses and quilts things like that

[00:10:51] I used to be a professional metal sculptor. I've done a lot of different things and So my living situation since it's just me and my kitty Has mostly been to live in a place that is like I basically live in an art studio and you know

[00:11:08] I'm grown up enough that I have like a full bedroom To sleep in I'm not just sleeping in the middle of where I paint and and stuff like that But I do do my own most of my own printing I can print up to you know, 24 inches wide

[00:11:23] Anything bigger I you know have local print shops that I work with but I use different areas of my house for Photography like will at some point in our talk today. I'm sure we'll talk about UV photography

[00:11:38] and I actually use the the bathroom the powder room for that and most of the you know, the editing is like right here in my living room and You know, it's it's very convenient. This is the way to do it. You want your studio at home?

[00:11:52] You've got the fridge right there. You can work late and crash any time You can get a little work in before your day job in the morning So I've had external studios before but I really like working from home and just having everything Right here and available

[00:12:09] Everything's just out of frame. I have an easel on this side and my big commercial printer is just on that side You know, we all curate what what we see on the camera and all my studio stuff is just out of frame I

[00:12:22] Think next time we need a tour around the house one moment You got it Then let's start is then infrared photography for to understand it better I think we we should cut it in two parts

[00:12:37] We will do a beginner part and we will do an advanced part. Sure for those rain New in this field explain me what is IR photography exactly? What what extra dimension can it bring to my photography and what is the basic gear? I will need

[00:12:54] Yeah, so let's talk about what infrared images look like when we hear infrared Sometimes we think of like thermal imaging like, you know, like terminator vision and that is a type of of infrared Photography, but it's it's a little different from what we're talking about

[00:13:14] If you imagine all the colors that we can see all the light we can see is just called the visible spectrum in the whole entire Electromagnetic spectrum we can only see a tiny little portion of it

[00:13:29] Those are all the colors like the colors of the rainbow when you move outside of the light that we can see Just beyond red starts the infrared portion of the electromagnetic spectrum

[00:13:41] this is light that we can't see with our eyes, but we have a lot of instruments that we can see this this light with and then translate it into something that that our human eyes can see and infrared is a

[00:13:54] There are different parts of it. There's near infrared and far infrared Near infrared is what we use for photography. It's also how the Facial recognition works on your phone It's in all kinds of things in daily life and and it's you don't even know it

[00:14:11] So we can use it in photography to highlight foliage like anything that photosynthesizes takes on this bright white glow and Gives the image Sort of a surreal almost haunted look there's no color in infrared light

[00:14:32] So infrared images are typically processed as black and white but you can also do Infrared in combination with visible light so you're kind of mixing a little infrared and a little visible light and then that gives you the ability to work with

[00:14:48] Color and then also have that glow of the foliage that we talked about So you would recognize an infrared image that you saw online or in person because the trees are usually and the grass and everything is just glowing like bright white and

[00:15:06] You might have a blue sky or again It could be processed as black and white if you look at my infrared images You'll typically see a lot of that false color and that false color looks like I'm really fond of pink

[00:15:19] So I make a lot of pink trees you can turn the colors anything you want in in post-processing like saying in Photoshop, but it's a very interesting and pretty easy to

[00:15:34] To use medium and the way if you if you just want to get started and see if this works for you all you need is an Infrared filter for your regular camera or you can even get an infrared filter for your smartphone

[00:15:49] You can get a like a little adapter that sort of clamps on over your camera And you screw on the filter to that and then you can go out and take your infrared pictures so the

[00:16:01] the thing that you need to know if you're doing it this way is That the infrared filter is very dark It's going to be what you want to buy if you're interested in doing this is a

[00:16:14] 720 nanometer infrared filter. It's very dark. It's almost black and you can't see through it It's preventing its blocking out all of the visible light that's below 720 nanometers so when you put it on to your lens your camera is

[00:16:31] Going to it's it's not really getting a lot of light to be able to expose the image So you want to use a longer exposure time or you know, just a long I should say like a higher exposures and the way that I typically recommend doing it is

[00:16:47] get a tripod and start with like a half second exposure keep your ISO low and And you can go outside and take pictures of whatever you want Now those images are not going to look like what you see online at first What your camera sees is

[00:17:04] Red like you're gonna see the scene as if it has a red gel over everything once you import it into Your you know to your computer or you could actually edit it on your phone You can edit that as a black and white image

[00:17:19] And then you'll see that contrast of that really bright foliage and that dark sky dark water Lots of detail in the clouds and and things like that So it's pretty easy to get started just with that 720 nanometer filter and

[00:17:34] processing it in black and white using editing tools on your phone or Photoshop or or Lightroom even whatever tool you want to use for that. It's pretty easy to get started there is a free guide on my website that will walk you through all of this and

[00:17:48] all you need to do is go to the learn link on my website and down near the bottom you can add yourself to the mail list and That will automatically send the guide to you. My mail list is super minimal

[00:18:03] I hardly ever send emails out when they when I do I you know, try to make it something meaningful So there's not gonna be any spam and I don't give my emails away or to share them with anyone else

[00:18:14] That's how I would recommend to get started is to get that guide And rain the cost of the filter compared to Sending your camera off to get converted or buy converted one

[00:18:26] Sure, it's it's a little bit more involved, you know if if you are just buying an infrared filter It might cost you 3050 70 American dollars depending what size you get for your lens

[00:18:40] If you don't want to be limited by having to do a long exposure and use a tripod Then you can get your camera converted so that it can see infrared without Without that filter there there are two different types of conversions that you can do

[00:18:57] There is an infrared conversion and you can have it converted to 720 nanometers or there are other frequencies that we can talk about that you could use but that is usually a few hundred dollars and all that process really is is to

[00:19:15] remove the internal infrared cut filter that is built into your camera and Have it replaced with an infrared filter that is inside the camera Then it you don't need you don't have anything Blocking the light so you can just go out and kind of shoot normally

[00:19:34] But your camera can only shoot that infrared wavelength the other type of conversion is to get a full spectrum conversion and That removes that infrared cut filter and just replaces it with a piece of clear glass So you will still need to use a filter on your lens

[00:19:55] but you can use any infrared filter you want and As I mentioned a moment ago, you can use other frequencies besides 720 Going higher than 720 up to about a thousand nanometers You you just get more and more and more of that infrared glow and

[00:20:17] If you go down from 720 you Start to the filter begins to let in more visible light and that's what allows you to Manipulate the colors into false colors Just so you know if you're starting out and

[00:20:33] You're just getting a filter on your regular camera or on your smartphone You really need to use the 720 because lower than that It's not really strong enough to get around the filter that's already inside your camera or inside your phone

[00:20:49] So with a converted camera, you can use lower frequencies But just on your regular camera, you need to stick with a 720 for it to work The full spectrum camera conversion

[00:21:00] Advantage is that you can also use it to take regular color pictures just as you could before it got converted So it's a really nice way to have a lot of flexibility It allows you to do astrophotography

[00:21:16] And other applications and you only need one camera body when I started this I had an infrared 590 millimeter conversion and then I had a separate camera body to shoot color so I had two identical camera bodies and

[00:21:34] It was a huge waste of money for me because once I started shooting infrared I was not interested in color I've probably taken 20 pictures with that camera body so I Just realized for me and actually for a lot of infrared photographers. It becomes Strange to take color photos

[00:21:55] But I still kind of recommend that full spectrum conversion just in case you still want to or if you for some crazy reason Don't want to do infrared all the time So to be clear if you want a converted camera

[00:22:09] I suppose you can buy them at one of the companies that deliver those or you can send in any Older camera if you have one digital camera and they will convert it for you Both of those things are true

[00:22:21] most of the companies that do the conversions like life pixel or Kallari will sell you the camera already converted or You can send them yours. I think what I did was

[00:22:33] I bought a new camera and had it shipped directly to them so that they could do the conversion and send it to me I wouldn't worry that anything is gonna happen to your camera

[00:22:42] I mean, I'm not personally guaranteeing that but I've I've felt confident and comfortable sending my camera off. I Think yeah, that's that's my recommendation is that you just send it directly to them Okay rain for those who already

[00:22:56] Making pictures in an infrared so different wavelengths will get different effects I was wondering if if it's like a creative process that maybe you start Let's say one wavelength and slowly you go to another one because it's more interesting or it doesn't work like this. I

[00:23:15] Think it depends on the photographer and what your own aesthetic interests and your creative goals are I Would recommend going on to the website of Kallari or life pixel or one of those companies and you can look at a chart of

[00:23:32] What different filter wavelengths will look like unprocessed? channel swapped which we can get to in a second and then fully processed and You can decide which of those conversions or if we're just talking about a full spectrum conversion You can use any of those as external filters I

[00:23:52] Really liked the 590 when I started out the 590 nanometers looks great and black and white but it also allows you to do a little bit more color and I wanted to have both of those options. So the 590 was a good choice for me I've since experimented with you know, 720 830

[00:24:15] 550 665 and for me after several years, I still come back to the 590 as the one that is The most interesting and the most beautiful to me and you can always buy more filters on a full spectrum camera You can you know

[00:24:32] they even sell some of them as as packs that are a little more economical and you can get a whole set of Different wavelengths for your camera and and that's a super fun way to experiment and try different things

[00:24:45] And just to be clear I was thinking if you are a portrait photographer then Infrared is not so much your thing. No, I always hear that people's faces are not the best in infrared Actually, I think it's amazing for portraits infrared makes people look

[00:25:02] Like they have perfect like baby perfect skin. You can't see freckles You can't see any kind of imperfections in the skin at all infrared penetrates the top layers of your skin and so Because it's reflecting from the tissues that are below the surface of your skin

[00:25:25] It gives kind of this translucent look. It's it's a little bit alien The reason that you might think that it doesn't work for portraits Especially the first time you try it is because our eyes don't reflect very much infrared light So you have this like beautiful glowing

[00:25:43] Baby perfect skin and these like vampire dead eyes It's it's a really creepy look. It's it's pretty terrible actually and your teeth look very gray and disgusting but you can go into your editing program and just do a little dodging on the eyes and on the teeth and

[00:26:04] Suddenly, it looks really beautiful and great. You can color in the eyes if you want to It's actually really nice for wedding photography, you know if folks are into that aesthetic

[00:26:16] There are people who do wedding photography and in infrared. I know a couple of people who do like glamour photography and infrared and work with models that have a lot of tattoos Because tattoos look very striking and infrared, you know

[00:26:35] It's like very crisp and on top of that perfect pale skin It's a very interesting and and kind of beautiful look So it looks horrible the first time you try it before you edit it

[00:26:48] And then once you edit it, you see that it's actually a little bit a little bit magical Okay. Well, it's a surprise then you touched a moment the subject of editing already Walk me a bit quick through your post-postering

[00:27:04] Workflow because I suppose it's something you spend hours on also after taking a picture like this Yeah, you don't have to spend hours editing an infrared photo I mean I do but it doesn't mean anybody else does that's just kind of a reflection of of my

[00:27:21] Need to get things, you know a certain a certain way It's often a little difficult to tell how an infrared photo is going to turn out So you want to kind of quickly?

[00:27:32] Do some editing on it just so you can kind of see where it's going and then you can decide Yeah, this is really going to be great or this isn't quite right the normal way that people begin the editing process is to

[00:27:46] import the the images into your computer then there is There's a custom profile That you want to apply to your to your images this custom profile is specific to your camera And it's something that you can create or you can download them

[00:28:05] There are a few people that that offer them and you can just download free ones online and what this custom profile does is move the The temperature of the photo when you import this photo. It's going to be like I described a little bit ago

[00:28:21] That's what your camera sees And when you try to change the temperature using the color sliders You'll find that you can't you can move it all the way to blue and it's still not

[00:28:36] It's still too red. There's there's really nothing you can do about it because like for instance in photoshop the program that I use It just doesn't there's you you just max it out on the slider

[00:28:47] So what this profile does is give you a way to kind of move that window of and move the entire temperature of the image in the first place when you first import it as a raw image

[00:28:58] And then the sliders will work for you to actually be able to set the white balance and change the color Of the raw image so that it's something that you can work with so it's going to go from red to

[00:29:11] kind of a sepia and dark blue color or Sometimes it can vary a little bit and it depends heavily on the frequency of filter that you're using so once you have this custom profile and you and you don't actually technically need this profile if you are

[00:29:33] Processing in black and white but i'm i'm kind of letting people know about it because if you want to work in color Then you're definitely going to need it Once you have this

[00:29:42] Custom profile it's just a file that sits on your computer and you never need to create another one again Unless you get a different camera and then you'll need a new profile that goes with that camera

[00:29:53] It's one click in lightroom or in camera raw to apply that that custom profile And then you can sort of do some basic editing in camera raw if you want to to adjust the Usually you'll want to adjust the the contrast a little bit

[00:30:11] Maybe add a little bit of clarity or de-haze To give it a little bit more pop and then you can open it up into photoshop And begin editing normally Except there's one other step that's particular to infrared which is called a channel swap

[00:30:30] and what that means is you are going to create an adjustment layer and using the channel mixer And you're going to set the red channel to 100 blue and 0 red And set the blue channel to 100 red and 0 blue

[00:30:49] And this is going to flip your colors around so that your previously sepia looking sky is now going to be blue And your foliage is going to be very pale gold or white And that's what gives you the basis for doing the classic edits of

[00:31:09] 720 nanometer or even 590 so that you've got this beautiful blue sky and then this gold or white foliage And then you can use different adjustments Like hue saturation and others to get the colors exactly the way you want them

[00:31:25] If you just want to process it in black and white you really don't need to do that channel swap step at all You can just use whatever you like. You can use a black and white adjustment layer

[00:31:35] You can use a third-party plug-in like silver effects or there are a bunch of others. I haven't experimented with a ton So there are a couple of special steps just as a recap is one is applying that custom profile And the other is doing a channel swap

[00:31:52] And those are pretty standard steps if you want to do, you know color work in infrared That's why it gets a little bit you know the editing can get a little bit complicated because if you And again, it doesn't have to get complicated

[00:32:08] It has to get complicated if you're me because I want to make sure that the colors look really clean and i'm Removing any color cast that I don't like and kind of you know, I might use a different color

[00:32:23] A different hue in the shadows versus in the highlights to give it a little extra depth You can Keep advancing your editing process as you learn more You don't have to do any of this stuff right away

[00:32:37] But since i've been doing it for a few years every time I learn a new trick or a new tool in photoshop I immediately want to apply it and Then start kind of adding up all of these different techniques into making images that I think are

[00:32:52] Kind of pushing my creative vision further and further And you're doing a great job there with your images rain they are fabulous everybody I will have in the show note her kelby one class. I will have her website and you can check it out

[00:33:06] then I was wondering if I Let's say i'm a landscape photographer and i'm good at seeing a composition in front of me with my normal camera The moment I switch to infrared Red

[00:33:19] I need to start thinking different about compositions or because maybe these plants of these trees of this mountain It doesn't reflect the right light in the picture as I wanted

[00:33:29] Do I need to start or do I get swept away by all this magical change that is going to happen? Excellent point. It's very easy to get swept away in how cool infrared looks when you get your Converted camera or you're using a filter on your regular camera

[00:33:48] There's a step you can do to help you visualize your images in infrared and that is to set a custom white balance All you need to do is with that filter applied take a photo of that. You can use asphalt

[00:34:02] You can use a gray card. You can use any sort of neutral looking surface and then It's going to just take a like a red picture And then you set that as your custom white balance and suddenly you're going to see

[00:34:16] Your landscape or whatever you're looking at through your viewfinder or on your live view in infrared And it's amazing and you're you're walking around. It's like you're walking around in wonderland. It's so cool

[00:34:29] it's very easy to get caught up in that and just start taking pictures of things and forgetting all about Your other principles of composition and light and And artistic vision and things like that So I want to say like first of all, that's perfectly fine

[00:34:47] Go out go hog wild have a good time and enjoy what you're doing And get your fun without having to feel like constrained by all of these Technical and creative considerations like just have fun And when you're ready

[00:35:04] look at your photos and see if you're happy with what you're getting if your compositions are well formed and balanced and interesting if your lighting looks right and then once you start

[00:35:17] Critiquing your own images then you can begin to apply those principles so that you're making images that you know That are good images rather than just fun So balance the fun and the idea that you actually want to make like a good image Good advice there

[00:35:36] rain let's move a bit to something I'm a bit more used to to a bit macro photography and UV photography Let's go explain me quick the two kinds of uv photography that exist All right

[00:35:52] So we talked about the visible spectrum and how infrared is just on the other side of red Well just on the other side of violet is ultraviolet What that looks like is 365 nanometers instead of the 720 of infrared so you're on the other side of the visible spectrum and

[00:36:12] What this looks like is well, it's a black light like you would have at the club What makes your t-shirt glow white? That same black light can also induce Fluorescence in plants so you end up with

[00:36:29] plants that have little bits that are that seem to be glowing and Are super bright and and almost look like they are generating the light And the super cool thing about this is the plant is generating that light. It's not the it's not the uv

[00:36:46] Reflecting off of it. It's the uv that is Exciting this fluorescence in the internal tissues of the plant and causing it to create its own light So i'm totally fascinated by this process It's completely different from infrared. The the colors are

[00:37:03] Super saturated and they're neon and it's very different from having to work so hard to To coax these interesting subtle colors out of infrared You are just getting like punched in the face with color and light with uv so it's it's very fun

[00:37:21] As you said, there are two different types of uv photography I do one and I don't care about the other the one that I don't care about is uv photography. That is basically black and white medium

[00:37:35] Where you need a special uv filter? That's very very dark. These filters are super expensive And It's going to have kind of the opposite effect of infrared if you take a photo of a person it's going to show

[00:37:49] Every freckle you never even noticed that you had it's going to show all the sun damage of your entire life On your skin It's these different types of light reveal different details in the things that we're photographing and and usually those things are alive

[00:38:07] And it's an interesting medium, but It's very kind of gritty and hard looking to me. I'm not super interested in it, but i've seen some people do cool stuff The work that we're talking about and we usually call it uv but it's really the uv ivf

[00:38:26] The ultraviolet induced visible fluorescence and that's where we have as you've seen with some of my images Like a flower with a dark background And parts that are lit and kind of glowing brightly So uv ivf is what we're talking about

[00:38:44] And then we need also a dark bathroom like you told before and we need this magic light You made me buy it the other time. I have it here somewhere You see my magic light

[00:38:55] If this video gets out on youtube, the people will see what I mean explain a bit more what we need for these pictures rain So that's your blacklight. That's your source. It's

[00:39:05] 365 nanometers you can buy it off amazon and you can buy it from you know, a lot of different sources online Depending where you are in the world. It will be you know, the the brand isn't super important What is important is that you're getting? 365 nanometers not 395

[00:39:22] And do not get anything below 365 The reason is because there are different bands of uv There's uva uvb you see that on your bottle of sunscreen and then there's uvc Uvb and uvc are dangerous. You do not want to use those and those are the lower frequencies the

[00:39:44] 365 is uva. It's our ordinary blacklight. It's the same Uv that is coming from the sun Well, all of these types of light are coming from the sun But the uva is really widespread and everywhere whereas the uvb and the uvc get a little bit filtered in the atmosphere

[00:40:03] I want to just let folks know before I forget that all types of uv light are damaging To your eyes and to your skin So you should never point a uv light at a person definitely not point it at anyone's eyes

[00:40:20] And you want to wear safety glasses when you are working with these Any type of polycarbonate glasses like the five dollar safety glasses those work fine polycarbonate naturally filters over 99 percent of uv light

[00:40:36] Your normal reading glasses will work, but they're not particularly protective if they're not, you know Covering a large a large part of your of your face If you are using a lot of uv lights or you're exposing yourself for a long period

[00:40:52] You could wear a mask like you would wear if you are working in a like in a metal or a wood shop Just a polycarbonate shield. I also like to wear little sun gloves that you can

[00:41:03] They're like little fingerless gloves just to protect my skin if i'm kind of working in that uv light the The damage that this stuff causes is long term. It's not going to give you a sunburn right now

[00:41:13] But if you were careless and got a ton of exposure you could develop cataracts and things like that later. So That's my lecture on safety. Please wear your glasses and don't let your kids play with this stuff This light can be bought for probably 20 25 us dollars

[00:41:30] Like I said on amazon or anywhere else you want the 365 nanometers? and then you can take it in your dark room and There are different ways that you can do this work, but you're gonna probably need a long exposure

[00:41:44] So you'll want a tripod and usually some way to hold the light some type of clamp I use the platypod products a lot. They're like these small little tripods with bendy goosenecks and And little clamps they're super easy to manipulate and maneuver the lights around

[00:42:04] When I started out I was just hand holding the light For like 10 20 seconds holding my breath holding the light on the flower taking the photo that got old So that's when I started using the platypod products to help me out with that

[00:42:19] Okay, and long exposure what what we are talking about here grain Yeah, I like to keep my iso low, especially when it's You know, it's a super dark environment. You're gonna get a lot of noise no matter what So I try to keep my iso at 100

[00:42:35] And if you're not focus stacking you're just taking a single frame shot You are probably going to want to use an aperture of like f16 to f22 So you're going to need a long exposure time and that's probably it really depends on the flower

[00:42:53] But I would say somewhere between like seven and 30 seconds usually It's very hard to tell which flowers are going to fluoresce and which ones are going to be just total duds

[00:43:06] Some flowers reflect infrared light really easily and some just seem to absorb it and no matter how much light you put on it It's gonna look dull and horrible and feel like a waste of time when you're editing this photo

[00:43:20] So you just want to experiment with that and with each flower figure out You'll I mean you'll see right away how much it's kind of glowing and you can use that to determine what your exposure time should be

[00:43:35] And I want to come a moment. I want to talk to about this Cleaning process of the subject you're going to because I made some pictures and it's true

[00:43:44] What you say every little speck of dust and of course, maybe it's fun to see it because it all glows like a mini fairy lights But I suppose there is a lot of work cleaning up afterwards in in post-processing there

[00:43:59] It's true. The thing that glows brightest in all the world is dust And at first you won't notice it the first few pictures you take You're gonna go. Oh my goodness. It sparkles. It's amazing

[00:44:12] It's like a unicorn and then when you look closer, you can really differentiate between Say pollen that glows like gold dust And house dust which is going to be purple and

[00:44:24] Often look like little tiny fibers or it's just not it's not going to be in the right pattern on on your flower So so I recommend trying to start with a you know, a clean flower working with something from the florist is

[00:44:38] Always going to be more dust free than something that you picked from outside I do like to use things that I picked from outside I try to pick things that are not right next to the ground and in a dusty location

[00:44:51] I also like I said work in my bathroom. One of the reasons that that's an ideal space for me is because The surfaces are you know tile and painted walls and it's a a relatively low dust environment

[00:45:05] So try to start with a clean subject is my first advice My second advice is in the editing process, you know You could spend hours clicking on each little speck of dust that you don't want on your photo And that's a personal decision of what you

[00:45:22] Want to do what works for the image what works for your patients? I always go back to make sure that you are enjoying the process and what you're doing if you're going to spend hours clicking on dust and And hate doing that then

[00:45:39] Then don't do it, you know, you can still make these images and you can have like some house dust sparkles and that's fine I like my images super clean. So i'll totally spend the time to clean them up

[00:45:49] But but it's really not like it's not something that is is make or break for sure Reign talking about creative process I think you told me once that you always love to learn new things maybe that don't have to do also with your life

[00:46:04] Right, is this like you are always on search For a new creative process to keep your mind in a happy place It's kind of the opposite. Actually, I i'm a person who is just kind of naturally interested in everything

[00:46:20] I I don't think i've been bored for a single minute of my life like everything is just amazing and Life is interesting nature is so interesting and

[00:46:33] When I started the uv I was only going to try it like one time and I just popped into the bathroom with the flower I got at the farmer's market and Here I am almost a year later and you know, i've got like 100 000

[00:46:48] Frames, you know for focus stacking or whatever of uv images And I mean it's like over two terabytes on my hard drive of uv images And I was just going to do it for five minutes

[00:47:00] And I keep trying to quit doing the uv and maybe move on to doing some other things, but it's not working Yeah, send help Yes If I remember well you grew up in a more like rural area and now you're in san francisco bay, which is more

[00:47:19] city-like environment your photography changed therefore more like Buildings or cities or you always get the call to nature back? I have done some urban Environment pictures architecture is actually a really interesting infrared subject the coatings that they use on some of the glass on skyscrapers

[00:47:45] Create these really interesting and unpredictable colors I was totally surprised when I started doing that to see some of the colors that I was seeing in infrared Where I live in oakland in the east bay of san francisco. It's like seven miles from san francisco proper

[00:48:02] We have a ton of open space and park land I can be in the redwoods in 10 minutes I can be hiking in the hills in 20 minutes to where I don't even have cell phone service There's so much space to roam and the terrain around here is

[00:48:20] Just incredibly beautiful we have the redwoods. We have mountains. We have hills so many different places You can go and and and san francisco is also just very conveniently located to places like Yosemite and death valley and you know, these really major places of like extremely beautiful

[00:48:42] landscapes, so I I've one of the reasons I like photography frankly is because it gives me an excuse to go hiking and spend time outdoors And still be doing something productive You know, it feels almost like i'm pulling one over

[00:49:00] Because it's kind of hitting all of these different Needs and desires that I have to be in nature to be doing something creative to be getting exercise to be Alone in my thoughts or you know, or with a small group maybe So I I do find myself

[00:49:19] Kind of gravitating toward those landscapes for all of those reasons I went out to do some landscape photography on sunday and Came home with a whole bunch of samples of wild flowers to do for the uv so boundaries are crossing here and

[00:49:38] Getting beyond the a comfortable level of busy with the number of projects that I want to do while still Being a responsible adult In other areas of my life, i'm sure you don't know what i'm talking about right but

[00:49:56] I have no idea why I try to do a podcast in the in the night Rain to come back a moment to your amazing macro uv flower images You as as an artist

[00:50:09] What you want people to feel when when they see your images what you want to achieve there? I think it's it feels a little cliche to say I want people to notice what i'm pointing at but I just find so much Wonder in tiny little things that are

[00:50:30] Unnoticed and beneath our feet weeds all around us billions of them all the time one of the most common descriptors that people Offer about my uv macro work is alien and to me that says that people are seeing these things in a way that

[00:50:50] They really haven't noticed them before like they're very familiar when they're at a distance and they're blending into the background but when you look at a dandelion close-up or a seed

[00:51:02] Of a stork spill it's like a corkscrew with a pointy end and barbs all over it. It's really Interesting to see all of the forms that nature can take that are so beyond human imagination There's there's nothing that we can do to compete with how cool nature is

[00:51:24] I really also want to give people Some beauty to look at I think life is difficult and People are under a lot of stress. I think we're at a point in history where there's a lot going on and with Technology and being online all of the time

[00:51:46] I think it's easy to be overwhelmed You know marketing is so powerful. We're constantly being pulled into look at this and do that and You know pay attention to this pay attention to this, you know, like

[00:51:59] The number of ways that that meta tries to get me to check my notifications for four different platforms by logging into four different accounts to see the same notifications is like It's really hard to shut all of that stuff out and also

[00:52:17] Remain connected in the way that we want to be to one another in the world So if I can offer people Just a little bit of a distraction from that and Show them something that is beautiful or that makes them say, oh wow then

[00:52:34] That's really what I want to do is like i'm i'm fully okay not having a message in my work There's there's nothing lofty or Intellectual or political or anything like that. No messaging in my work. It's just like oh my gosh. Look at this Look at this

[00:52:52] Isn't this cool? Isn't this pretty and I for me that's that's The whole story and that's enough is that beauty? You touched the moment there social media rain let's say As a mentor role if people would ask you I want to be part of a community online

[00:53:14] What you think is the best way to go ahead in this is to show your pictures To be seen your pictures or to inspire or to enjoy pictures from other people Socially is is kind of a tough one for me

[00:53:29] I really want to be connected to people and you know I'm on facebook because I want to see people's kid pictures I want to see the parties that they went to and and like, you know Whatever they had for lunch or whatever

[00:53:41] I want to see what people are up to and it allows me to stay in touch with people in a way that is difficult Without that As far as like having your creative work online and connecting with people through that We've got a lot of different

[00:53:58] Choices for social media platforms. None of them are super great for photography right now There are some really small companies that are photography specific But there's not much of an audience there

[00:54:13] You'll there's a handful of other photographers you can connect with but you're not really going to reach An audience outside of kind of your your own community your your peers if you will I think the important thing is to engage

[00:54:29] So if you just go online and post your pictures and and hope that people are going to notice It's very hard to make that happen. It doesn't that's not how the algorithms work the algorithms work based on your interaction with others

[00:54:46] If someone does notice your work and they comment on it, you should thank them for it. You should Make that connection with them if you like someone else's work, then you should let them know and and

[00:55:01] Try to offer a meaningful comment about the image. That's not just like cool sunset bro Or or something that's like amazing, you know something meaningful is Is what creates a genuine connection? It's not great if it's causing you any kind of distress

[00:55:20] Or feels like a waste of time It can not feel great when you post pictures that that like it's your best work You're really proud of it and then you go online and you see Work, that's a lot better and that happens to all of us

[00:55:34] And it just it doesn't always feel great to be exposed to tons of other artwork even though you kind of want to but then it It's not always the healthiest

[00:55:43] So I think it's really important to in social media in your art in your life to know who you are Have a really good understanding of who you are and where you're at in your life and don't compare yourself to other people That is just you know

[00:55:59] recipe for feeling horrible Everybody is at a different point in their own lives and their own journeys Often people who have a quote-unquote overnight success have been working really hard on that for 10 15 years Getting no traction And then suddenly it's overnight after 10 years of really hard work

[00:56:22] But we don't see that 10 years We just see that someone is like the first time we see them. They're super awesome and getting all this attention So, you know don't compare yourself to others know who you are what you are on social media for and

[00:56:39] For the love of god get off it if it's not working for you. It's not that important Very true, I think to inspire people and and more in a photography way Is why we also do this this podcast really is to show that

[00:56:57] Photography you could never be stuck. There are so many genres you can You can try I try in the podcast to touch all the bitters genres that maybe get up one day

[00:57:07] You're stuck in landscape try portraits try uv try anything and we can do it cheap or we can do it expensive But don't get stuck because it's a fantastic medium Yeah, you know, I only started doing these this macro work

[00:57:22] Because it was during the pandemic and I also Had a couple of years where I just had constant migraines and I really could not get out into the hills to go hiking

[00:57:33] I was just not feeling well at all and I couldn't walk around with this like 15 pound pack of camera and You know, it's super grouchy about it too. So I just started

[00:57:44] I found some little weeds outside my own front door and put them on my coffee table and started doing the macro photography Right there It was very simple But it was a way for me to do something

[00:57:58] that kept me involved and kept me busy until I could get back to Doing the landscape stuff that I really wanted to do Now here we are like a couple years later

[00:58:10] And I have to make very deliberate efforts to go back out and do the landscape because i'm enjoying doing The macro photography so much so whatever your circumstances are whatever your level of physical ability, whatever your

[00:58:23] Your whatever finances you have to put toward this hobby it it really It doesn't matter. You should just use what you work with and And maximize that and go be go be awesome within those parameters because If you had no parameters your creativity would probably

[00:58:43] Not be it wouldn't it wouldn't encounter any resistance and it wouldn't be forced to kind of Exercise and figure things out and and get stronger I'm i'm a huge advocate for having some kind of limitations

[00:58:57] And if you have built-in limitations like health or money then all the better for you and your creativity Very well said evane there and I think we can go on for another half hour of podcasting

[00:59:14] But i'm sure we both have things to do and you have flowers to make a pickaxe Rain Thanks a lot for this talk and this insight

[00:59:24] I think if we talk a little bit more I have to buy a converted camera and I will have something else to do but first I promised you I will make the uv pictures and I will send them and you will give me your opinion about them

[00:59:38] Tom I am so appreciative to be invited onto your awesome podcast and to get to be part of that I've loved our conversations and it's been really great to make a new friend and also to just look more closely at your work

[00:59:53] Like I said your your insect photos your bees Really do kind of you know, put a bee in my bonnet so to speak to motivate me to To do that as well. And when we talk about like

[01:00:06] What creative things we're going to do next because we're always changing. I really do want to explore insects so I Have you to thank for that motivation and i'm yeah, i'm super happy to be face to face in conversation with you That's amazing to hear

[01:00:26] Thank you rain for this and any questions you have just send me an email and we'll be in touch Sounds great. Thanks a lot for our talk and I see you around with your amazing

[01:00:38] Microimages then likewise. All right. Thank you. I see you. Have a nice day still rain. Bye Bye There you go. How was that for an inspiring podcast episode? I hope you enjoyed our conversation with rain as much as I did and you learned something new along the way

[01:00:57] I think her dedication to show us that invisible world through her infrared and ultraviolet photography is truly inspiring And her practical insights, I think offer a great guidance for photographers of all levels

[01:01:09] You know if you want to see more of rain's stunning work be sure to check out her calb1 class Visit her website and you can find all the links down in our show notes

[01:01:21] Remember folks to follow us on any favorite podcast platform you have so you never miss an episode And if you love today's show, please leave us a review and share it with your friends That would be awesome to keep us going

[01:01:33] I'll leave you today with this quote from the british novelist and journalist William tecary who already said in 1850 The two most engaging powers of a photograph are to make new things familiar And familiar things new

[01:01:49] Until next time this is tom jacob signing off keep capturing those unique moments Keep on moving your photography and see you in the next episode of the camera cafe show adios