"Joanne Coates: Stories of Life on the Land”

[00:00:00] That is my entire being and telling those stories and I think especially around class and social change, that is the purpose of my life. Even though it sounds really cheesy, but it's like that is what I'm...

[00:00:14] And I think that makes me want to do it every day or be able to wake up and do it every day and want to be obsessive about it. And even if I say to myself, I'm going to have a day off, I end up doing some kind of research about it.

[00:00:26] And so it just becomes part of it. And I think in some ways that's why like farming and the arts are quite similar because they are things that...

[00:00:33] It's almost like they are lifestyles as well as a profession. And it's this kind of...

[00:00:40] You have to have this obsessiveness with either of them to be able to do the hours and to be able to do the odd times and to be able to put everything into it.

[00:00:57] Greetings everyone! I hope you all had a marvellous week shooting some amazing pictures

[00:01:01] And welcome to another episode of The Camera Cafe Show, the podcast where we prove up inspiration for your photography journey.

[00:01:08] I'm your host Tom Jacob.

[00:01:10] And I'm Richard Clarke.

[00:01:12] With Etienne Malovana working on the other side of the room.

[00:01:15] And today we're happy we could finally find some time after months to sit down with Joanna Coates from the UK,

[00:01:22] a visual artist and photographer whose journey began in the rural northeast of England.

[00:01:28] Joanna's upbringing in a working class farming community profoundly shaped her artistic perspective,

[00:01:34] driving her to explore themes often overlooked in the art world.

[00:01:38] Her passion for storytelling and dedication to creating meaningful work have earned recognition,

[00:01:44] including the prestigious Gerwood Photo Works Award and the Vassur Baltic Artist Award,

[00:01:50] and also of course running various exhibitions and being showcased in galleries around the UK.

[00:01:56] Joanna's photography tells into this intersection of rurality, class and gender,

[00:02:02] with projects like Daughters of the Soil and Middle of Nowhere, which we will talk about later in the interview,

[00:02:09] who capture these hidden stories of working class women and rural communities.

[00:02:14] Through her unique approach, Joanna empowers women to tell their own stories,

[00:02:19] building photography with sound, video and installations later to challenge stereotypes and inspire social change.

[00:02:27] We will also talk of how Joanne holds the honor of being the UK election artist for 2024,

[00:02:33] where she captures the spirit of democracy and their voters through her unit vision.

[00:02:38] In this episode, Joanne also opens up with us about her neurodiversions.

[00:02:43] She was diagnosed autistic and having ADHD has influenced her creative process and storytelling.

[00:02:50] From the way she connects with her subjects to the unique challenges she faces in the art world,

[00:02:55] Joanne provides a deeply personal perspective on how her experiences shape her art.

[00:03:01] So, get ready for an unforgettable deep conversation about documentary photography,

[00:03:06] but also lighthearted about her farming life and how she convinced Rich and I to go to see her

[00:03:12] and learn to milk cows, and of course inspiring you to see the world through a different lens.

[00:03:17] Let's get rolling.

[00:03:19] Good afternoon, Joanne, there in the UK. How's been your day today?

[00:03:23] It's been really good, thank you. Nice to see you.

[00:03:26] How's the farm? Any exciting things happened since last time we talked?

[00:03:30] Well, we've been having some like arts events on the farm,

[00:03:33] so bringing like rural creatives together to come on the farm, so that was quite exciting.

[00:03:39] Okay. And animal-wise?

[00:03:42] Not really, no.

[00:03:44] Not really? No little calves? Nothing? No.

[00:03:46] That's coming up, so like January.

[00:03:49] Busy time.

[00:03:50] Let's walk a bit back now when, I don't know, when you were 10 or 12 or 14.

[00:03:57] When did you first pick up your camera or when did you know that art was going to be your call in life?

[00:04:03] Oh, it's a really good question.

[00:04:06] I had access to disposable cameras, but I didn't actually pick up a camera until I was about 16.

[00:04:13] But I think the arts have always been a key part.

[00:04:18] So I always was interested in art.

[00:04:20] So at first I painted, so I really liked painting and drawing.

[00:04:24] So I was always painting and drawing.

[00:04:25] But I do often think, so my vision is like minus 12.

[00:04:31] And so every single picture of me when I was little is like, I'm squinting.

[00:04:37] Like you can't see my eyes in the photograph because I was only like seven or eight when I got glasses.

[00:04:42] So when I got glasses, all of a sudden I was really attuned to the visual.

[00:04:47] So sometimes I think did that have something to do with it, but I don't really know.

[00:04:53] Then you went on to study photography, Joanna, right?

[00:04:56] Yes.

[00:04:58] Basically what happened was at about 16, I was really involved in kind of subcultures.

[00:05:05] So what would be called a Grebo, which is someone who likes like alternative new metal music.

[00:05:11] That was the nickname for that person wore really baggy trousers, light mosh pits, that kind of thing.

[00:05:18] And I used to borrow my boyfriend's camera at the time, his dad's camera and take pictures of our friends together.

[00:05:25] So that was like the first time I was really consciously making images of something, but I still kind of didn't think of it as a possibility for a career.

[00:05:36] So because I had this kind of connection to the arts, I studied an arts access, which is where you do your kind of A-levels within a year.

[00:05:44] And it's kind of an alternative to studying A-levels, a different form of education.

[00:05:49] So I did that and I was lucky to have a really nice lecturer who really kind of understood my background and kind of understood maybe like the challenges and really kind of introduced me to photography as a career, as something that people did, as something that you could study.

[00:06:08] And that's really when I thought I could go to university and I could study photography.

[00:06:13] And then it took a few years of like saving up.

[00:06:16] And then at 20, 21, I went to university and studied photography.

[00:06:23] You touched the moment there, backgrounds, Joanna, because you come from a working class family.

[00:06:29] Has this always shaped your photography journey, your rural roots, so to speak?

[00:06:36] Again, it's a good question.

[00:06:38] I mean, I think it's, I do think it's shaped who I am.

[00:06:40] But I think the awareness of that comes from university.

[00:06:44] And I think that's kind of a part of class.

[00:06:46] And especially in the UK, in the 80s, you had Thatcher saying that kind of class doesn't exist anymore or Blair saying that class wasn't an issue.

[00:06:57] And what happened is in the UK, we've had a real lack of class consciousness, but we still have those backgrounds.

[00:07:04] And actually those backgrounds, the statistics around them have been getting worse and the access to the arts have been getting worse.

[00:07:11] There was a study that came out this year.

[00:07:12] And there's only 16% of people in the whole of the creative industries who are working class.

[00:07:20] And I think 16, 17, I wouldn't have really known what working class was.

[00:07:26] And I don't think I'd have been able to identify myself with that or really understood that.

[00:07:31] But I feel it was the access to knowledge and theoretical knowledge that helped me identify my class.

[00:07:37] And also really understanding that even getting to university, for most people, that's just something that they do.

[00:07:44] It's not like, you know, a lot of my peers, a lot of my friends weren't going to university.

[00:07:49] No one had really mentioned it to me growing up.

[00:07:53] And it's kind of, it was something that other people did.

[00:07:55] And there wasn't like shame around that.

[00:07:58] It was just different background from my own.

[00:08:01] And I think then even getting to university became this bigger thing and having to save up to go.

[00:08:06] And then going and realizing that that's not even, like I was already kind of on the steps,

[00:08:12] like pull together for that and thought it was this really big deal.

[00:08:15] And then you get there and you realize most people just see it as like a given that they're going to go to get to study.

[00:08:21] And I think that's when I was like, this is really strange and what's going on here.

[00:08:24] And then talking to my lecturers about that and learning about class and it became a real kind of part of my learning.

[00:08:32] So, yeah, I do think it's always been a part of my identity.

[00:08:34] But consciously, I think I only learned about that at maybe like 1920.

[00:08:42] When about to start seeing this in your images?

[00:08:45] Would you say like when was that discovered?

[00:08:49] I mean, I think in my images, it was there pretty much straight away.

[00:08:54] Because even in the kind of the subculture and that kind of like, I mean, those images when I'm teenager,

[00:09:02] they weren't my work, so it's slightly different.

[00:09:04] But I do think seeing class in my work was basically the very first work that I did.

[00:09:10] And I look back to the first essay I did on my foundation course and it was about class in photography

[00:09:15] and it was about kind of different things and it was about the American Midwest.

[00:09:20] And so it was always kind of there.

[00:09:22] And the first project I did around fishermen in the UK and kind of the reasons for doing that

[00:09:28] and the communities that I was looking at, it still depends because you could be a fisherman

[00:09:32] who owned a really large vessel or you could be a fisherman who owned a small vessel

[00:09:37] and didn't have access to much.

[00:09:38] So it was always kind of there from the beginning.

[00:09:41] So obviously it's that kind of like deep-rooted connection.

[00:09:47] And so the day you came home and you told your parents,

[00:09:51] I want to go to photography university, I want to study art.

[00:09:55] How was the reaction at home?

[00:09:57] Well, so kind of one of, I guess one of the reasons I had to leave home was

[00:10:02] because I'd finished my GCSEs, which is, I don't know what the equivalent would be in other places.

[00:10:07] It's your end of secondary, end of high school.

[00:10:11] So you finish and then you decide what you're going to do.

[00:10:14] And I was like, I really want to study arts.

[00:10:17] And there was a very, you know, that you can't do that because that's not a job.

[00:10:22] So why would you, and I don't think that that was, I think at the time I felt like it was a big criticism

[00:10:30] and, you know, like difficult thing.

[00:10:32] But actually I think there was also a duty of care there because they didn't know anyone who did that job.

[00:10:37] They didn't know that people could do that.

[00:10:39] So like to them, it was like, you know, if you do that, you'll end up in lots of debt.

[00:10:44] You whatever bills pay off.

[00:10:45] And you might be in the same position as you were to start with.

[00:10:49] They want you to be happy.

[00:10:51] That's, that might not make you happy.

[00:10:53] So I think that there was that kind of worry around that, which sounds quite strange because I guess a lot of people might be like aspirational,

[00:11:01] like go to university, change your background.

[00:11:03] But I feel like it is.

[00:11:05] And I think that's kind of part of class as well, because maybe it's the middle class who has the educational aspiration.

[00:11:11] And that's really key to the middle class.

[00:11:13] Whereas in the working class, it's slightly different, but I'm going off course.

[00:11:19] No, it's great when you go off course, because I love to hear you explaining, Joanne.

[00:11:25] How you tell your stories about working class people through your eyes.

[00:11:29] And it's about shining a light on that as well, isn't it?

[00:11:31] And then that's the beauty about university and education.

[00:11:35] And it's what I'm hearing, I know.

[00:11:37] And I mean, I'm, I'm really grateful for firstly, the tutors that I had,

[00:11:42] was understanding the references to give to me and, and giving me those, especially the theoretical references.

[00:11:49] And like you said, I think it gave me that ability to do that.

[00:11:53] And without those lecturers, who knows what could have happened as well.

[00:11:58] What was your response to your parents when they were a bit skeptical?

[00:12:03] So, I mean, I think I've always been quite headstrong anyway,

[00:12:07] and it was kind of complicated because it was a more turbulent home life.

[00:12:12] So it was a more complicated situation, but then I kind of ended up leaving home

[00:12:18] so that I could go and study the arts.

[00:12:21] So for me, that was the only real option.

[00:12:23] And because of kind of other things going on at home, ended up leaving.

[00:12:28] And that's why I kind of left home at quite a young age and then kind of got into.

[00:12:34] So I guess for me, it really helped me also find my place within the world at a time

[00:12:39] when I was quite out on my own as well.

[00:12:43] Jo, let's talk a bit about projects you did because you did so, so many things.

[00:12:50] It's difficult for us to pinpoint one and talk about tonight on the, on the podcast.

[00:12:56] But in the recent years, it's in an, in an order.

[00:13:00] Correct me if I, if I'm, if I'm wrong.

[00:13:02] It means Daughters of the Soil, Lie of the Land, Middle of Somewhere, General Election Artist.

[00:13:08] And now you're going back to Daughters of the Soil, I think for, for another edition, right?

[00:13:13] That's amazing.

[00:13:14] I well remembered.

[00:13:15] Yes.

[00:13:18] We're coming back on the election one a bit later, a bit more.

[00:13:22] This is a bit more fun, maybe a bit more, more recent.

[00:13:25] But I think Rich and I tonight, we will talk about Daughters of the Soil.

[00:13:30] I love the pictures.

[00:13:31] I love the work.

[00:13:32] It's an amazing project.

[00:13:34] You started this together, if I remember well, with somebody in Newcastle University.

[00:13:41] So there was, there was a call out from Newcastle University and the Maltings, which is an arts

[00:13:47] organization in Berwick-upon-Tweed in the north of England, to do an arts residency.

[00:13:53] And the themes were gender and agriculture.

[00:13:56] And the kind of conditions were that you would go and make work about gender and agriculture

[00:14:00] in this place.

[00:14:01] And I'd applied for that.

[00:14:03] And there was several artists interviewed.

[00:14:06] And I hadn't really had like a big commission like that until then.

[00:14:10] So that would have been 2019.

[00:14:13] And then I applied for it.

[00:14:15] And it really gave me the chance to go and put my all into that commission.

[00:14:21] Talk me a bit more in the depth show, the Daughters of the Soil.

[00:14:24] What do you want to tell that?

[00:14:26] I think, I mean, when I first heard of that call out and that gender in agriculture, and

[00:14:33] it was kind of because at the time I'd been doing farm labor and agricultural labor.

[00:14:39] And I'd also been hiding that in terms of my arts practice, because I did kind of feel

[00:14:45] a little bit ashamed that I had to do other things.

[00:14:48] And like, what did it mean that I wasn't earning enough money?

[00:14:51] And like, what did it mean that I had to do these other things to be able to do my practice,

[00:14:57] to be able to?

[00:14:58] And so I guess I'd never really talked about it before.

[00:15:02] But in that interview, I just kind of thought, right, this is the time to talk about it because

[00:15:06] it shows why I understand this subject.

[00:15:10] And I'm not from a farming background myself.

[00:15:13] So I didn't grow up in a farming background.

[00:15:15] But again, like my partner now is a farmer.

[00:15:18] And I'd also kind of, I've spoken to like his mom, his sister about that, like, you know,

[00:15:23] about succession and things.

[00:15:25] So I talked about that in the interview.

[00:15:26] And I think with farming, being from that kind of rural background, there's so many stereotypes

[00:15:31] about gender and agriculture, and especially around maybe like gender and agriculture.

[00:15:36] And there's still this idea that a man is a farmer.

[00:15:39] And when I worked with Sally Shorthall, who was the professor at Newcastle University I

[00:15:46] got to work with, what she was kind of talking about is succession is the main issue.

[00:15:50] So I kind of wanted to see from, there's this heavy research and all these statistics,

[00:15:55] but visually, is that what's happening?

[00:15:58] Is that what's happening in those communities?

[00:16:00] Can I talk to people directly?

[00:16:02] How do I make work about that?

[00:16:04] So that was my starting point for Daughters of the Soil.

[00:16:06] So then you have your project in mind, you have your starting point.

[00:16:11] And how did you find all these women?

[00:16:14] Well, it was quite interesting to say the least, because I'd been doing research and been contacting

[00:16:20] people, had a few meetings to start with.

[00:16:23] And then the day was something like, I can't remember exactly, say like March, the 20th,

[00:16:29] 2020, which was that it was basically the night of the lockdown announcement from Boris Johnson,

[00:16:36] who was our prime minister at the time.

[00:16:38] And so basically ended up kind of being like, I can't, it's not safe for me to go and move

[00:16:43] to this place and do this arts project at a time when COVID was happening.

[00:16:46] We had lockdowns across the UK.

[00:16:48] And so kind of thinking, how do I continue making this work?

[00:16:51] So I was doing quizzes with people, talking to them online.

[00:16:55] And it was actually a really nice start to a project because you would get into know people

[00:17:00] and talking to them, even though you were distanced.

[00:17:05] And then what it meant was as soon as it was safe for me to continue on with the project,

[00:17:09] that the connections with some people were already made.

[00:17:12] And I think it made getting started a lot easier.

[00:17:16] And you think, Jo, coming from more or less the same background, so to speak,

[00:17:24] made it easier to make a connection with them?

[00:17:28] I'm not sure because it's quite, so in Northumberland, the farms are slightly different.

[00:17:35] So even though I'm like, I would be a farm laborer, maybe have experienced milking cows.

[00:17:41] But a lot of the farms there are more like thousands of acre farms.

[00:17:45] So maybe it's a slightly different type of farming.

[00:17:48] And as well, I think farm communities in general can be quite wary of a stranger coming in and making work.

[00:17:57] So I think that they might have been still quite wary.

[00:18:04] But I think it does help being able to say, I milk cows, so that just it's a natural connection.

[00:18:13] And it kind of puts their mind at ease.

[00:18:15] But also it means in terms of someone coming onto your farm,

[00:18:19] they're probably going to be able to move out the way when it's needed or have a little bit of sense in that.

[00:18:25] And I do think that that helps put people's mind at ease.

[00:18:28] But I still think they're like, who is this person?

[00:18:31] And what do you want?

[00:18:32] And what are you doing?

[00:18:33] So there's always that element to like explain and to talk through with people.

[00:18:39] Did you find that getting to know people helped before you even picked up the camera with them as well and started to introduce the camera?

[00:18:46] Definitely.

[00:18:47] And I mean, I think it helps because it just meant they could ask questions and I could talk about what is the maltings if they didn't know what the maltings was.

[00:18:56] And like, who is Sally Shorthall?

[00:18:58] And even like introduce them to Sally's work if they wanted to be introduced.

[00:19:02] And what kind of happened as well is after talking with them, they would then introduce more women.

[00:19:07] So it became 40 women in total over the kind of entire time I was there.

[00:19:12] But what kind of happened is it would start with, I think it was six.

[00:19:16] And then it kind of, yeah, just snowballed from there because people would say,

[00:19:20] this person's great and this person's great.

[00:19:22] You should speak to this woman.

[00:19:23] So I think it helped that way because it was more almost like you had a conversational element at the very start of the work.

[00:19:33] And the places where you took the pictures, Joe, they told you where they wanted to take the picture or you did the walk with them and you told them maybe it is okay?

[00:19:42] So on Daughters of the Soil, I really worked kind of together with them.

[00:19:49] And it depends on the person because what I was kind of talking to them about is I would record sound with them and talk to them about what the challenges they face are as a woman farmer.

[00:20:01] And talk to them because I really wanted to incorporate sound into this project.

[00:20:05] So I kind of already said to them, this will be part of the work somewhere.

[00:20:10] I'm not exactly sure how yet, but we'll have those conversations first.

[00:20:15] And then in the case of Poppy, which is the woman who is kind of lent, she's like her arms are back over a hair bill.

[00:20:23] She was combine harvesting for her father while she was back for summer.

[00:20:27] She was at the time training to be a vet.

[00:20:30] Yeah. So basically, but she was talking about how she was deeply connected to the land in this way that she couldn't explain and how much that we have to care for it and tend to it and look for tomorrow.

[00:20:42] And that she was quite lucky that her dad had always taught her that because that had just been a part of their kind of land education.

[00:20:49] And because of that, I was kind of saying, well, it doesn't really make sense then to make a photograph of you in the combine.

[00:20:56] Maybe we can still try. But after what you've said, what you're talking about is this connection to the land and care.

[00:21:03] And so we were talking about how we would represent that.

[00:21:06] And we did we went on a walk together.

[00:21:08] But Poppy was like, I would like to kind of be playful with my movements and try this out.

[00:21:13] And so we'll still talk together and I'll still kind of guide.

[00:21:17] But I think it's important that the people get to kind of feel at ease and kind of pick.

[00:21:24] And I mean, there is as a photographer, I think you can see a background or you can see a certain light.

[00:21:31] And I think it's that guiding rather than telling that that is key.

[00:21:36] And when the project was over, Jo, what you did to celebrate it?

[00:21:42] You came together with them? You gave them a book?

[00:21:44] So as part of the work, I produced a book that's like it's a small print, more affordable book.

[00:21:52] So it's kind of like I don't know if it's the exact it's a B size.

[00:21:56] So I don't know the exact size.

[00:21:57] I should do that called Daughters of the Soil.

[00:22:00] And basically had enough printed that I could give one to each of the women as a thank you.

[00:22:06] And I think it was really important to make sure that they could just have a copy

[00:22:10] so that they could see themselves represented and see themselves as important.

[00:22:14] Because I think that that's something that maybe a lot of them talked about.

[00:22:19] Like they would say, oh, I just do this.

[00:22:20] And so they would say, oh, I just do all the paperwork.

[00:22:23] I just do the grants.

[00:22:25] I just do the diversification.

[00:22:26] And then you'd be like, well, hang on, that means that you run the business.

[00:22:30] So you just run the business.

[00:22:32] It's like an interesting way of thinking about it.

[00:22:35] And we had an exhibition and then I invited all the women to the exhibition.

[00:22:38] So they came and they could have their book there.

[00:22:41] They didn't have to get their book just there either, but had like food.

[00:22:45] And it meant that they could meet each other and I could kind of introduce them.

[00:22:48] There was people that I knew would have a lot in common.

[00:22:51] And what was really nice as well is it was the open exhibition.

[00:22:55] So people were seeing them and they wanted to talk to them about their farming and they wanted to talk about what they did.

[00:23:00] Who might not know as much about farming.

[00:23:03] So it meant that like lots of different people who were from basically the same area,

[00:23:09] but they might never have met each other, got to meet and talk and kind of go from there really.

[00:23:15] You see, it's amazing, huh?

[00:23:17] It's amazing what you can do with pictures in the end, Joe.

[00:23:21] Hopefully that is something I've always held on to.

[00:23:26] You think there exists something still like a romanticized view of farming?

[00:23:34] I definitely think there is still a romanticized view because maybe when you look around that person,

[00:23:46] someone could look at farming and they could be like, that's a beautiful place.

[00:23:50] And I don't think there's any kind of like denying that some of the places that people get to farm are beautiful

[00:23:56] or that you're lucky to get to be outside all the time.

[00:23:59] But like I've got asked before about milking, people have been like, oh, do you do it on a stool?

[00:24:03] Like I can just imagine you like wearing a dress and like milking on a stool.

[00:24:06] And I'm like, you know, milking is more familiar to working in a factory than it is to, you're like, you know,

[00:24:15] you're really quickly doing things in it and you have to put units on cows.

[00:24:20] It's very like production focused.

[00:24:22] And yes, you do need to know about animal care and different things.

[00:24:26] But it is quite industrial in the process of it now.

[00:24:32] And I do think that it's kind of removed in that way.

[00:24:36] And there is a lot of kind of difficult decision making.

[00:24:39] And I guess there is also a lot of fear around the future of farming and what that means.

[00:24:46] And there's all these kind of different issues that come with it too.

[00:24:49] And also a changing way of life, which is, again, that kind of tensions that I'm always interested in

[00:24:55] because things need to change and they've always needed, you know, like things do change.

[00:25:01] But it's also kind of that tension between that and the fear that comes with that

[00:25:06] and what that means for the communities around them.

[00:25:10] And so that's something that I'm really interested in.

[00:25:13] I was just thinking, Jo, that I know how to take pictures.

[00:25:16] This, you don't have to show me, but I don't know how to milk a cow.

[00:25:21] How hard is this?

[00:25:23] Well, I don't think it's that hard.

[00:25:25] I think you have to make sure they're clean and you have to be fast.

[00:25:31] And the hardest bit is probably putting like washing out the tank and making sure that's fine

[00:25:38] and making sure that you don't mess up anything.

[00:25:42] Because if you do the whole tank of milk, which would be quite a lot of milk,

[00:25:46] would have to be thrown away.

[00:25:48] So that would be the biggest thing that you could do wrong.

[00:25:50] I see Rich on the other side.

[00:25:53] He's smiling.

[00:25:54] But I think you also don't know, Rich, how to milk a cow.

[00:25:57] Definitely not.

[00:25:59] I've seen them.

[00:26:03] Fantastic.

[00:26:04] So let's talk a bit about gear.

[00:26:06] I think when we talk, you took on the topic that you didn't have always access to expensive

[00:26:14] camera gear.

[00:26:16] You think in a way this is important not to have access to some kind of gear to just make

[00:26:23] you just work harder for something you want to achieve?

[00:26:28] It's a really good question to think about.

[00:26:30] I mean, I think it can be frustrating to not have access to the equipment.

[00:26:36] But again, like if you study, what I found with a lot of my peers was they weren't borrowing

[00:26:43] equipment all the time.

[00:26:44] Whereas I was like, are you joking me?

[00:26:45] Like we can, but we can use all this equipment and borrow it.

[00:26:48] So in a way that made me, and I noticed if you, it made a few others really responsive

[00:26:53] as well because they wouldn't have access to that.

[00:26:56] So they really wanted to borrow and try out that equipment.

[00:27:00] And I don't know what the correlation would be.

[00:27:02] I don't know.

[00:27:02] I would have to ask them about their background and go back and revisit that.

[00:27:06] But I think, you know, when you finished university, it was frustrating in a way because

[00:27:11] you wanted to get going and you wanted to be able to do photography work.

[00:27:17] If you don't have like equipment, you can't get going with things.

[00:27:22] And I'd, what I'd done whilst at university was save up because with lenses, depending on

[00:27:27] what lens you get, but a lot of lenses are cheaper than an entire body and you can kind

[00:27:32] of start small and you can go that way.

[00:27:35] And so I knew I needed to save up for a camera body.

[00:27:38] And so it was like these kind of maybe like six, seven painful months of like not doing any

[00:27:43] photography and feeling really frustrated.

[00:27:45] But you could do stuff like you could have, you know, go to a charity shop and you could

[00:27:50] get like a really cheap, or you used to be able to get cheap film cameras.

[00:27:53] It's quite hard now.

[00:27:54] And you used to be able to get film from the pound shop.

[00:27:57] And yes, those are not the images you want to be taking.

[00:27:59] But if you're obsessed with something and you can't stop doing it, I mean, that is a

[00:28:06] good test for yourself.

[00:28:07] And like, it was that I needed to carry on doing that and needed to be connected to things.

[00:28:13] And, you know, when it's kind of like that challenge of that basic access.

[00:28:18] But I think that is one challenge and it is an economic challenge that I'm guessing quite

[00:28:25] a few people face.

[00:28:26] But also you can learn from that challenge and you can learn to push what you have and

[00:28:31] to try what you have.

[00:28:32] And, you know, I even think with access to film, film is increasingly really expensive.

[00:28:37] But I've always used the role of film sparingly.

[00:28:40] So I've always been like, I've got free chances to get this portrait and I have to make it

[00:28:45] work.

[00:28:46] And it's just made me strict like that.

[00:28:49] And so then when I used a large format camera, it didn't feel so different because you're

[00:28:54] only going to do that.

[00:28:55] You're only going to use like two sheets of film.

[00:28:59] And like with, I would never use like six rules of film for one person.

[00:29:04] And, you know, unless you had a job that would pay for that, which is a dream.

[00:29:08] And I think a lot of people would see that as a dream.

[00:29:10] And maybe in the commercial industry you would.

[00:29:13] So it's also a choice of which industry you work in and where you want to work and what

[00:29:17] you want to photograph.

[00:29:19] And there's no shame in the different sectors either.

[00:29:22] And I think that those are decisions as well.

[00:29:25] So what are you using at the moment?

[00:29:28] So I have a Mamiya 7, which is really nice.

[00:29:33] So there's a photographer called Ben Roberts and he was selling it.

[00:29:36] And before that I'd had a Rolly Flex, which was kindly, basically when I graduated, my granddad

[00:29:45] did this thing where he said he found it in his loft.

[00:29:48] So we didn't go to graduation because graduation to go to get to like five people to London

[00:29:52] on the train to hire the gowns.

[00:29:55] It was such a big thing.

[00:29:56] So like we graduated in my mom's garden and she just made like a little homemade sign.

[00:30:02] And then my granddad had said that he'd found this Rolly Flex in his loft, which there was

[00:30:08] never any family photographs from a Rolly Flex.

[00:30:10] Like, you know, he obviously just wanted to give me it and he knew if he'd bought it, I

[00:30:15] would have said no, that it wasn't because he couldn't really afford that.

[00:30:20] But it was a really nice thing for someone to do because it's almost like that belief

[00:30:23] in you.

[00:30:25] And I think this is what's really lovely about photography is you do have these people who

[00:30:29] just want people to do well.

[00:30:30] And so I knew Ben's work.

[00:30:32] I think I'd talked to him a few times on kind of like Twitter, maybe Instagram.

[00:30:36] And he said, look, I'm selling it.

[00:30:39] I really do want the money for it.

[00:30:40] But if you want to buy it in installments, like over 10 months, then we can do that because

[00:30:46] I really wanted to see it to go to a good home for someone who'll use it.

[00:30:50] And I think something like that meant that then I could buy them a Mia.

[00:30:53] And for my digital things, I have a Nikon D850 and just various lenses for different jobs.

[00:31:02] You ever use flash, Jo?

[00:31:05] I do sometimes if I have to, but I don't dislike it in other people's photographs.

[00:31:13] I really like it in other people's photographs, but in my own, I don't love it.

[00:31:18] I just, I feel like it almost becomes like not an image that feels very me.

[00:31:25] And I don't know whether it's because I find it quite intrusive to the situation.

[00:31:33] So you do have to use it in some situations, but I tend to not use it.

[00:31:39] I was wondering, because I think you were a friend with Caroline Mendelssohn, no?

[00:31:43] Yeah, she's a wonderful photographer.

[00:31:45] Yeah.

[00:31:46] She was talking, and I was thinking about her work that she does with the flash and this

[00:31:51] Rembrandt kind of look of portraits, which are amazing.

[00:31:55] You're not sharing the same camera with her, no?

[00:31:57] No.

[00:31:58] I mean, her work is absolutely beautiful.

[00:32:00] And I think it's an example of how to use flash in a really lovely way.

[00:32:04] So that would be a really good example, I think, of someone who, I think it's a lot of the

[00:32:10] time studio flash, but if anyone wants to see her series focusing on kind of young women,

[00:32:15] and I think she's been a guest on this podcast, I'm pretty sure, is she has this beautiful way

[00:32:20] of connecting with people.

[00:32:23] And it doesn't look like a harsh flash.

[00:32:25] It's very soft.

[00:32:26] It's very studio.

[00:32:28] So there are different ways of using it.

[00:32:30] And, you know, I think Caroline's a really good example of that.

[00:32:32] But I think, I don't know, maybe it's because it's like outside a lot.

[00:32:36] But then again, like I've seen other photographers work who I've really liked the use of flash,

[00:32:41] like Anna Fox is a photographer whose work I really like, and I'm pretty sure they're using

[00:32:46] flash and film.

[00:32:48] But it's just whenever I've done it, I've just not felt a big connection to the images.

[00:32:56] I was going to say flash, not your style.

[00:33:00] So, but yeah, I'm similar to music photography.

[00:33:02] So I can't use a flash anyway, even if I wanted to.

[00:33:06] But yeah, so just touching on about yourself, like what challenges do you face on like a

[00:33:14] day-to-day basis in terms of, because I know that you've been diagnosed with autism and

[00:33:18] what is that like for you and your creative process?

[00:33:22] Is it barrier or do you find it like that's your super strength and that's your power and

[00:33:28] your energy?

[00:33:29] Oh, it's a really good question.

[00:33:31] I mean, sometimes, especially when there's a deadline.

[00:33:37] So there was a piece of writing that I was doing for a magazine last week and I'll do like almost

[00:33:43] obsessive amounts of research.

[00:33:46] And then when it comes to writing, I can really focus.

[00:33:49] And it's almost like this, you know, like really deep focus, getting something done.

[00:33:55] But there are also things that make it really challenging.

[00:34:02] So say if you're attending a private view or an event, which in photography is a lot of

[00:34:09] the way how people get to know each other or meet each other, I can't, you know, the sound

[00:34:14] of that hum of a busy room.

[00:34:16] So it might be in a cafe.

[00:34:17] It might be in a private, you know, like there's people all chatting and it's like a hum

[00:34:21] noise.

[00:34:22] It can be really challenging just to hear someone else speak.

[00:34:26] So it means that I can't hear them.

[00:34:29] And then also I kind of how I process information might be slower or I might even sometimes with

[00:34:37] questions, there might be something even like a podcast I might get quite nervous about

[00:34:41] doing because I'm like, what?

[00:34:42] I might misunderstand the question or take it quite literally.

[00:34:45] Or so there's this kind of like it almost feels like a communication challenge.

[00:34:51] And there is a lot of kind of masking that I think that autistic individuals tends to do.

[00:35:01] Not everyone, but it kind of depends on that individual and their connection.

[00:35:06] But I do think that there are real challenges that kind of make things a kind of struggle

[00:35:14] sometimes.

[00:35:15] But I also kind of, I don't know, like I think because I was late diagnosed, I had to learn

[00:35:23] how to deal with things.

[00:35:25] And it's the most recent work I've made for MIMA, which is the Middlesbrough Institute of

[00:35:30] Modern Art, kind of looks at my position as a rural artist and it's through self-portraiture

[00:35:36] and I understand how I'm kind of doing this farm work and what my position is and also what

[00:35:43] my position is as a neurodivergent person.

[00:35:46] And it looks at all those different things and the ways that I release or stim, which

[00:35:51] is when you move in different kind of ways that helps you, like it's almost self-soothing

[00:35:55] behavior.

[00:35:56] And so it's the first time I've really explored and I was playing with Flash for a lot of that

[00:36:02] series as well.

[00:36:03] So maybe I did kind of like, like I guess for that series, it felt interesting to do it.

[00:36:08] But that's, that's, it's still like a work in progress that I'm playing with and the portraits

[00:36:12] that I've liked some of us still haven't used Flash.

[00:36:15] But I think, yeah, like it's, it's something that I'm constantly kind of thinking about

[00:36:20] and sometimes maybe like struggle to articulate it.

[00:36:25] It's, it's one of those, those kind of things where I do think there's definitely things that,

[00:36:32] that neurodivergent people have that are these like beautiful things and things that you can

[00:36:37] recognize.

[00:36:37] But I also think that there, there are real struggles and it's almost like it is a disability.

[00:36:43] And if it wasn't, it wouldn't be disabling.

[00:36:45] Right.

[00:36:45] So there are things, but like in, in the space that I'm in, I think there's still a stigma

[00:36:51] around saying like, I, I'm autistic or I have ADHD because your value is very based on like

[00:36:57] the work that you can do and in maybe like the Northern English countryside.

[00:37:02] So you have to be your work first, which I don't know whether that is a good thing or

[00:37:07] a bad thing.

[00:37:08] And these are things that I'm asking myself and figuring out.

[00:37:11] So I don't really have the answers for them.

[00:37:14] Interesting to hear.

[00:37:15] And it's, there must be like daily challenges that you overcome and it sounds like you know

[00:37:21] yourself incredibly well.

[00:37:22] So that was really good.

[00:37:24] Fantastic.

[00:37:25] Oh, thank you.

[00:37:27] And you definitely articulate it very well as well.

[00:37:30] So.

[00:37:30] Oh, thanks.

[00:37:32] So Joe, talking is sometimes a bit difficult for you to strangers?

[00:37:37] Yes.

[00:37:38] I mean, I think the one-on-one talking is always my preferred style or the thing that I find

[00:37:46] easiest.

[00:37:47] And maybe I have thought about this in terms of, cause I don't, I don't really think, I

[00:37:52] mean, I've photographed people in like four or fives and you know, for commercial where

[00:37:56] you've had to do group fours, but I find it like super challenging and almost like painful.

[00:38:02] And like, it's like, obviously it's not painful, like literally painful, but it's, I do find

[00:38:09] like big groups quite challenging.

[00:38:11] So, but, but I mean, that also might be, I think I'm always thinking of like, why is that?

[00:38:19] Is that to do with that?

[00:38:20] Or is that to do with me as a person?

[00:38:21] So I don't know is the answer.

[00:38:23] But then, yeah, like I think talking one-to-one or like being around people, I really enjoy.

[00:38:30] It might just be the kind of like slower processing.

[00:38:34] Sometimes there's things like if you get really, really stressed in a situation, like I've

[00:38:39] learned how to, so there's a thing like where you can like tap.

[00:38:43] So say if you're in a situation and you feel very stressed by it and you might have a panic

[00:38:47] attack or you might go nonverbal, but there are kind of breathing techniques.

[00:38:51] You can learn different things you can do.

[00:38:54] So there's like, it's like bodily tapping and different things.

[00:38:57] Emotional freedom technique.

[00:38:58] Sorry, is that emotional freedom technique?

[00:39:01] I think so.

[00:39:02] I could, yeah, I couldn't remember the name for it.

[00:39:04] And then, you know, so there are different things to help you manage, but I think yeah,

[00:39:11] ultimately it's like, so I have a support worker who helps me manage my diary and times

[00:39:16] and things like that.

[00:39:17] And there's things like time blindness that, you know, sometimes it is really hard to describe

[00:39:22] these things to people because I think people are becoming aware of neurodivergency more and

[00:39:27] becoming to accept it more.

[00:39:30] But I still think there are, yeah, like stigmas around it.

[00:39:35] Your support worker is Reid?

[00:39:37] Yeah, Reid.

[00:39:39] Then we give a big shout out to Reid.

[00:39:41] Thanks a lot because he's amazing.

[00:39:43] Answering in the same day already all my questions.

[00:39:45] Yeah, Reid is incredible.

[00:39:48] So let's go a bit to Vasseur Baltic Artist Award.

[00:39:53] In the memory of late Isabel Vasseur, Baltic Award was established to recognize artists deserving

[00:40:00] of an international platform and offer a step up chance of moment in their careers.

[00:40:07] You have now running Dariot exhibition middle of somewhere, I think until the 17th of November.

[00:40:13] Yeah, that's correct.

[00:40:14] Still, yes.

[00:40:15] So how has been all this whole experience?

[00:40:19] I mean, it's been incredible.

[00:40:21] So I got to work with a wonderful curator called Naomi.

[00:40:26] And I do think that the people that you get to work with really shape that journey, whatever

[00:40:33] that journey is.

[00:40:35] But even finding out that, like that, so Sarah Monroe is the director of Baltic and she nominated

[00:40:46] me for it and then there's a meeting and the people who made me for it.

[00:40:49] And then there's a meeting and the people decide who gets the award.

[00:40:51] And even knowing that someone has believed in you that much, I think is a massive thing.

[00:40:56] Because I think self-belief is something that I still do struggle with.

[00:40:59] And sometimes I think crippling self-doubt is a friend of the artist.

[00:41:03] Sometimes I think it's not.

[00:41:05] But I think it makes you carry on because you always have that doubt.

[00:41:09] So it makes you continuously work, which could be an issue.

[00:41:13] Who knows?

[00:41:15] But it is definitely something like that.

[00:41:19] Someone saying, like, I believe in you.

[00:41:21] And I think that you go out there and you're making this body of work about something that

[00:41:26] you care about for a reason and all these other things.

[00:41:28] But having that thought behind you is an incredible thing for you to go out and make work and to

[00:41:33] be able to make work that might be quite challenging or stressful or you might be in these kind of,

[00:41:39] but to be given that chance, I think is incredible.

[00:41:42] You refer mostly to yourself as a visual artist more than a photographer, Jo?

[00:41:48] I mean, I think so.

[00:41:50] Yeah, again, it's something that I think about quite a lot.

[00:41:53] But I think increasingly because I use these things like installation or sound or video.

[00:42:02] And sometimes I'm looking at writing.

[00:42:05] Sometimes I'm looking at and I think it just gives me the freedom.

[00:42:08] But everything I do revolves around photography.

[00:42:10] So photography is always the core and photography is always the key of everything I do.

[00:42:16] So photography is always kind of in the middle.

[00:42:18] But I think increasingly other things, and I think as a visual artist, it gives you the

[00:42:23] freedom to do that and to be seen in different ways.

[00:42:27] Whereas a photographer, you're kind of rightly or wrongly put in a box in a certain way.

[00:42:33] And I kind of like the freedom, but you are still a photographer.

[00:42:36] But I would say just the way that I'm working and maybe the mediums that I'm working on,

[00:42:41] the way that I'm showing my work or the places, maybe like visual artists is a way of understanding

[00:42:47] and people connecting and also being open to what that work is.

[00:42:51] So they're not going in this space with like this preconceived notion necessarily.

[00:42:55] Whereas I think as soon as they hear the word photography, they have like a very set notion.

[00:42:59] So I kind of like to play with that a little bit.

[00:43:04] Joe, because for all the listeners, it's been months since we told,

[00:43:10] yes, I want to come on the show.

[00:43:12] Just let me find a date.

[00:43:13] And it's been very difficult because you're always so very, very busy.

[00:43:17] So how you manage it?

[00:43:19] I mean, I think your fiance is running the farm.

[00:43:21] You are helping on another farm.

[00:43:23] You're doing your photo works.

[00:43:25] And I don't know what else you're doing all in between.

[00:43:27] How you manage your life, Joe?

[00:43:30] Sometimes I ask myself this question.

[00:43:33] I mean, again, like I think a key thing to think is I have a support worker who does help me.

[00:43:39] So I have seven hours a week where someone is helping me.

[00:43:43] And that's incredible.

[00:43:45] I think like being on a farm, you do have to help.

[00:43:50] There's no free ride.

[00:43:52] And there's, you know, you're always going to be needed to go and block the road.

[00:43:57] So, you know, make sure the cows don't get out.

[00:43:59] Or there'll be times when you need to feed the cows or look after them or just check them.

[00:44:04] And again, that's kind of just part of your life.

[00:44:07] And then farm labouring, like milking cows is, I would say it depends.

[00:44:14] So what I really like about that as a job is that you can work four hours a week or you could do 30 hours depending on your photography.

[00:44:23] So you basically with your freelance career, what might happen is you might have a really good month where you know you're going to earn a lot.

[00:44:31] And then the next month you might earn like nothing.

[00:44:32] So that in turn basically shapes how much I milk and it's called relief milking.

[00:44:39] So there is that.

[00:44:40] But yeah, even just managing photography, I think, you know, you're always and I think this for every photographer is almost like a pie chart.

[00:44:50] You're doing different things as a photographer, different projects, managing that anyway.

[00:44:53] And I think I do have to be super organised and it's not, I don't know.

[00:44:59] I think for me it's like I'll have, there's like a spreadsheet and it's like which exhibitions are coming up?

[00:45:05] When are they coming up?

[00:45:07] What am I working on?

[00:45:08] Is there a gap that I have?

[00:45:10] Like what can I be doing in that?

[00:45:11] Is it personal work?

[00:45:12] And I also think like making sure that you do still have time for your practice.

[00:45:18] So that might sound strange because you might be doing personal projects,

[00:45:22] but they might be commissioned work or it might be a commissioned visual arts project.

[00:45:27] But I think making time for you to play and practice still is really important.

[00:45:30] So even if you can find an hour or two to do that, that is part of your work.

[00:45:35] And there's also, yeah, like the admin side of being a photographer,

[00:45:39] the less kind of interesting side maybe that everyone has to do, I think.

[00:45:43] But it is, I don't know.

[00:45:45] I think that like visual arts photography is, it's the only thing I can do.

[00:45:51] And I know you might say, well, you can do farming.

[00:45:53] And, but I think that like, that is my entire being and what is what like that telling those stories.

[00:46:01] And I think especially around like class and social, you can change.

[00:46:04] That is the purpose of mine, like life, even though that sounds really cheesy.

[00:46:08] But it's like, that is what I, you know, and I think that makes me want to do it every day

[00:46:14] or be able to wake up and do it every day and want to be obsessive about it.

[00:46:17] And even if I say to myself, oh, I'm going to have a day off,

[00:46:20] I end up doing some kind of like research about it.

[00:46:24] And so it just becomes, yeah, like part of it.

[00:46:28] And I think in some ways that's why like farming and the arts are quite similar

[00:46:31] because they are things that it's almost like they are lifestyles as well as a profession.

[00:46:37] And it's this kind of, you have to, you have to have this obsessiveness with either of them

[00:46:43] to be able to do the hours and to be able to do the odd times

[00:46:47] and to be able to put everything into it.

[00:46:50] And what was this you mentioned in the beginning?

[00:46:53] You had some artists coming over to the farm.

[00:46:57] So accessing rural space in the UK can be quite daunting for people.

[00:47:03] If they're from a city, they might never have been to the countryside.

[00:47:06] And we have these kind of like, not everywhere has a right of way.

[00:47:10] So in Scotland, the land is open access so people can walk wherever they want.

[00:47:14] In England, it's not.

[00:47:15] So people do feel sometimes like, where am I allowed to walk?

[00:47:18] Where am I allowed to go?

[00:47:19] So, but also kind of like growing up in this area, I knew that I never had the chance to be connected to the arts

[00:47:27] and I didn't have the chance to be connected to any artists.

[00:47:30] And I think like, how would it have shaped things to be able to earlier on, be able to connect to the arts?

[00:47:36] So I set up, this is at the moment, it's a strand of my practice.

[00:47:40] I haven't set it up like as an official kind of company or anything, but it's called Roova Arts.

[00:47:44] And basically it's this kind of events that I can do on the farm and different things that we can do on the farm to bring people together.

[00:47:52] So what we did on there, we did a kind of a weekend of events.

[00:47:55] One was like a community band dance and line dancing and getting people involved and asking what their hopes and dreams were for the future.

[00:48:02] And also kind of like introducing them to the arts.

[00:48:05] And then on the other day, it was for 10 artists.

[00:48:08] So different, not like some of them were photographers, some weren't photographers.

[00:48:11] photographers, bring them together, walk together, think of the issues they face and kind of turn that into what would your dreams be in this situation.

[00:48:19] Eat together and just be together in this kind of a different way of networking than this thing that a lot of people might find difficult.

[00:48:27] And I don't know if it's because of my background, but a lot of the people who came were neurodivergent

[00:48:32] and what they said that is actually connecting in this space where they could walk.

[00:48:36] And, you know, it's not a busy room.

[00:48:37] It's a slightly different thing really worked for them.

[00:48:40] And so over the next year, I'm hoping to do more events with River Arts and kind of combine what is my life is like farming and arts and combine that and make it accessible for other people.

[00:48:52] But also for people who were like, not just young people, but I think there was definitely for me is like I felt I had to leave to be able to be this artist.

[00:49:01] But actually I'm making work about this rural place and people might want to leave.

[00:49:06] So I think it's kind of creating a space for different people and thinking of how to do that and thinking of how I'm going to find the time to do it.

[00:49:14] But that's something that we'll think about on another stage.

[00:49:20] Joanne, why you didn't invite us?

[00:49:21] We would have loved to come, if you're sure.

[00:49:23] Chloe, sign us up.

[00:49:26] Yeah, you should come.

[00:49:27] I will invite you next time.

[00:49:29] You see, we can milk cows and you can set up a dark room.

[00:49:32] You can do everything.

[00:49:34] Well, I'd love to set up a dark room here.

[00:49:36] So if anyone listening is like, I know how to do that.

[00:49:39] I have, technically I have stuff, but we just don't have a building for it.

[00:49:43] So I think that that's just a challenge and you overcome challenges.

[00:49:48] So hopefully that's something we'll overcome and there might even be a dark room one day.

[00:49:52] Let's see.

[00:49:52] Sounds amazing.

[00:49:54] Let's walk a bit back to the official election artist for the 2024 general election in the UK.

[00:50:02] How came that to be, Jo?

[00:50:04] Where they got your name from?

[00:50:06] Well, I'm still asking myself.

[00:50:08] So apparently somebody somewhere nominates you.

[00:50:12] So it's quite cloak and dagger because I asked, I was quite interested, you know,

[00:50:16] who nominated me and it's anonymous.

[00:50:18] So they don't tell you who nominates you, which is like, it's quite interesting because you kind of want to know.

[00:50:26] But I think there's a set amount of artists nominated and then I think it's about 12 that are interviewed.

[00:50:34] And so there's a group of artists who are interviewed.

[00:50:37] You have to come with a presentation.

[00:50:39] So you have to have an idea of what you would do.

[00:50:42] And I knew about the role of election artists.

[00:50:46] I knew some of the previous election artists work, like Adam Dant.

[00:50:50] So he made this kind of, I think it's a lithograph or it's some kind of print, but almost like Hogarthian, you know,

[00:50:56] like this kind of satirical commentary on politics, really interesting work.

[00:51:03] Simon Roberts, who is a photographer, had been the election artist in 2010.

[00:51:06] And so I knew about the role and I knew about different works of the election artists, but I didn't like really know about the process of it.

[00:51:16] So the next thing was this interview that you had to come and present.

[00:51:21] And so I did a presentation about the rural vote and how I thought that that was going to be really interesting in this election.

[00:51:27] And I also said decentralized places.

[00:51:30] So in London, you could have a decentralized place or in, you know, like these kind of places that are more maybe cut off or underfunded,

[00:51:38] or I thought it'd be really interesting to look at those places.

[00:51:42] And I also kind of was like, well, I might not get it.

[00:51:44] So I might as well go with something that I'm really interested in.

[00:51:47] And then at least if they say, no, I've got something that I actually want to do anyway, so I could go do it anyway.

[00:51:53] And then it was a few days after the interview, they called and they said, look, we'd like to offer you the position.

[00:52:02] And then I think two days after that, Rishi Sunak, who was the prime minister, called the election.

[00:52:08] So when we were interviewing, they were kind of talking like it would be September, so you would have lots of time to plan and get ready.

[00:52:15] But it was yet like two days to get ready.

[00:52:17] So you had to like move all your work, get your milking shifts covered and get ready to go.

[00:52:22] So it was, I mean, it was something that was too much of an amazing opportunity for me to say no to.

[00:52:30] And the fact that, again, that they'd seen the kind of potential of the royal vote and those different voices.

[00:52:37] And I'm the only person of election artists to be not from London or the southeast of England and, you know, not be based there and not be connected to that kind of arts industry in that way.

[00:52:49] And I think, again, like it made me think I've got to do this and I've really got to do a good job.

[00:52:56] And organizing wise, Joe, how you manage all this?

[00:52:59] I mean, in two days, you drove all around the country by car?

[00:53:03] So I drove, I can't remember the exact amount now.

[00:53:07] It's over like 7,000 miles.

[00:53:09] I mean, luckily in my presentation, again, that kind of obsessiveness came in.

[00:53:14] So like in my presentation, I'd already listed constituencies.

[00:53:17] I think like there was like at least 25 where I was like, these would be really interesting.

[00:53:22] So I wasn't going from like zero.

[00:53:25] So I'd already done quite a lot of research for that presentation.

[00:53:29] And so I could already talk about constituencies, like what the kind of key issues were in those constituencies, what I wanted to look at, why I thought that this vote was interesting and why I thought it was the UK was in a really interesting time politically.

[00:53:43] And I think if you see what's happened, the role of what has kind of really come into play, especially in the past kind of few weeks looking at politics in the UK.

[00:53:50] And I think it's just kind of being in that space and being aware of those things.

[00:53:56] So I think there was, I had to kind of go and what would happen is I had to be quite responsive.

[00:54:02] So I'd be driving somewhere and I would be contacting people and I would be photographing them.

[00:54:10] And then I might get back quite late and then I'd have to do some research and I'd have to.

[00:54:14] And this is where like Reid came in really helpfully as well.

[00:54:19] So Reid would be emailing people as well.

[00:54:22] But a lot of the time, because it was politicians, they wanted you to email them.

[00:54:27] So it was that just, it was just kind of juggling.

[00:54:29] So it was, it was these really long days.

[00:54:31] You'd be driving and getting this like short amount of sleep and getting ready to go.

[00:54:36] But it was almost like you couldn't stop because you would get tired.

[00:54:39] So you just had to kind of carry on with the like train of it.

[00:54:42] And I do think like in that situation, I think that like my ability to work under really like stressful pressure maybe comes in well.

[00:54:51] How long are the days are we talking from start to finish?

[00:54:55] So I would usually, it'd be like 6am you would be up and like ready to go.

[00:55:02] So you might have like done a bit of research before that and be ready to travel because you really wanted to get somewhere for at least like half, eight, nine.

[00:55:11] And depending on again, like at the start of it, it was a bit tricky because you were really trying to plan it.

[00:55:17] And as soon as you had your plans a bit more concrete, you could work it out a bit more and be like, right, where do I need to travel to?

[00:55:23] How do I need to get there?

[00:55:24] But even then you had to be flexible.

[00:55:26] So I was in Devon and there was one party that I hadn't covered yet.

[00:55:30] And they were, I think it was six and a half hours away.

[00:55:33] And they were like, okay, so we have today where we want you to come.

[00:55:36] And because you have to cover every party.

[00:55:38] I was like, right, I'm going to just, I'm going to have to go.

[00:55:40] Even though this doesn't really make sense with my plans, I'm going to have to adapt and be flexible.

[00:55:45] And it's just, I think, and almost like being in my car helped with that because you could like put on a podcast, the radio, like listen and go.

[00:55:55] But you had to just be really like on it the whole time.

[00:56:00] And it was, yeah, it was definitely challenging.

[00:56:01] But again, it's kind of like, I feel like a once in a lifetime experience.

[00:56:07] Sounds amazing experience.

[00:56:09] So hearing you, I think you're going to have more as once, one in a lifetime experiences.

[00:56:17] You have some goals over the next year that you want to achieve, Jo?

[00:56:22] I guess, well, I'm working up in Scotland at the moment in the Highlands.

[00:56:27] So there's a gallery museum up there called Timespan and making work.

[00:56:33] Like this is a theme that they've set about the gutting girls, but I'm really interested in how that ties to the clearances and how that ties to land ownership now and how that's all kind of tied together.

[00:56:45] And what is the contemporary version of that?

[00:56:49] So in Scotland, a lot of the land is being kind of brought up and it's similar.

[00:56:53] So it's kind of like these different experiences.

[00:56:56] But how does that relate to women's working class experience?

[00:56:59] Does it, does it not?

[00:57:00] And making that work with that community.

[00:57:03] And I think that is quite challenging again, but it's quite like important work to be making.

[00:57:11] So making that work there and being really present and in the moment and kind of being able to make work with a new community.

[00:57:19] So that's like a definite goal and vision.

[00:57:23] So that'll be like a new body of work.

[00:57:24] But it almost relates really closely to kind of like the life of the land, the daughters of the soil.

[00:57:29] And I think that's why they invited me to go and make the work.

[00:57:34] And so that's a really nice one.

[00:57:36] And there's a gallery called Farley's, which Lee Miller's granddaughter runs.

[00:57:43] And they've invited me to come and show Daughters of the Soil.

[00:57:45] So again, that's a really nice.

[00:57:47] So I don't know if you know as well, Lee Miller, did you still have the dairy farm?

[00:57:52] Which is something that I never realized until Amy's granddaughter had said.

[00:57:57] And then when I said to them about, they were saying about doing workshops, I said, you know, it'd be really nice to kind of like look at that or incorporate it in somehow.

[00:58:04] And they're like, well, you do know it's still, we still have cows and sheep here.

[00:58:06] It's still like a working space.

[00:58:09] And I was like, no, I didn't.

[00:58:10] So that's quite interesting.

[00:58:11] And that kind of connection.

[00:58:14] And if anyone wants to look up Lee Miller's photographs of dairy cows and the farming, that's quite interesting as well.

[00:58:20] So Lee Miller was a photographer.

[00:58:21] There's a film out at the moment called Lee.

[00:58:23] She was Man Ray's muse, but also a photographer and artist in her own right as well.

[00:58:28] I'm sorry, it recently is incredible.

[00:58:30] Absolutely loved it.

[00:58:31] I still need to see it.

[00:58:33] I live too far away from a cinema.

[00:58:34] That's the annoying thing.

[00:58:35] If I want to see it, I'm going to see it soon.

[00:58:38] It's well worth it for sure.

[00:58:39] Iconic images, just what she did with her camera and like take one shot, move on one shot and just blows my mind.

[00:58:47] Just what she created and did.

[00:58:51] I think it's that like she seemed to have that connection like visually and like, and I think she used a Rolly Flex.

[00:58:58] Is that right?

[00:58:59] Yeah, yeah, she did.

[00:59:01] But I mean, anyone who's not familiar with her work, I would definitely recommend looking up.

[00:59:07] It sounds very interesting, Jo.

[00:59:09] Maybe for a podcast with you next year about this.

[00:59:13] Yeah, definitely.

[00:59:13] I'd love to talk to you guys again.

[00:59:15] If you could do a collaboration with any artist, let's say in the present or in the past, who would it be, Jo?

[00:59:24] That's such a good question.

[00:59:26] Any artist.

[00:59:28] It's a hard question.

[00:59:30] It's a really good one.

[00:59:31] There's so many that I would like to, but there's one so like, I think like Tarkovsky's the one, but that's like one of my favorite.

[00:59:40] But I don't think he would be the best to do a collaboration with.

[00:59:43] Just in, well, he might be because he would have worked with a crew of people.

[00:59:47] So he's probably used to different people, but I feel like he would have his vision and be the director.

[00:59:52] So that might be more challenging in terms of a collaboration.

[00:59:56] But I think with Tish Merfer, who was a photographer, who was based in the northeast of England and made work about working class life.

[01:00:06] And to like, imagine if I could meet Tish and say to her, like, let's go and make work about class now in the country in 2025.

[01:00:15] And that would be like, just, yeah, that would be absolutely incredible.

[01:00:21] And again, if anyone doesn't Tish Merfer's work, it's just this incredible work from our lived experience point of view about working class communities at a time when like youth and employment was at its highest.

[01:00:32] And just an incredible photography.

[01:00:36] Jo, where is your happy place?

[01:00:38] I think on the fells.

[01:00:40] So a fell is like Northern English dialect for a hill.

[01:00:44] So there's a hill kind of upwards from the farm.

[01:00:48] It's called River Crag.

[01:00:49] So I think that that is definitely my happy place to go with my border colleague, Glenn.

[01:00:55] Without the camera or with the camera?

[01:00:57] I usually take my camera.

[01:00:59] I don't ever do, I don't really do much with those pictures, but yeah, I usually take my camera.

[01:01:03] It's amazing, Rich.

[01:01:04] I always ask this question and it's hard for photographers to let their camera down.

[01:01:09] They always, whatever they do, they always have to have the camera on by their side.

[01:01:14] Cooking skills, Jo, you have any good cooking skills?

[01:01:18] The mediocre at best.

[01:01:20] You're the one that likes to eat but doesn't like to cook?

[01:01:23] Well, I think I do.

[01:01:26] It's like joint cooking, but it's very like what's fast is good.

[01:01:31] Or your fiancé is a good cook?

[01:01:33] Not really.

[01:01:35] Also not.

[01:01:38] I'm just visualising the workshops we are going to do.

[01:01:41] The milking cows, the darkroom and the culinary project.

[01:01:44] I need to learn to make cheese.

[01:01:46] That would be the next thing, wouldn't it?

[01:01:47] That would be amazing.

[01:01:48] A little step, yeah.

[01:01:53] Jo, thanks a lot for interviewing.

[01:01:55] It's been really a very, very nice talk.

[01:01:57] Thanks a lot for having us.

[01:01:59] Have a great evening still.

[01:02:00] We'll be in touch.

[01:02:01] Thanks so much for having me in.

[01:02:03] And it's really nice to talk to you both.

[01:02:04] And yeah, I definitely think you both made me feel at ease.

[01:02:07] So it was really easy to talk to you both.

[01:02:09] So thanks.

[01:02:10] Okay.

[01:02:10] Talk to you.

[01:02:11] We'll see you around, Jo.

[01:02:12] Bye.

[01:02:12] Bye.

[01:02:13] Bye.

[01:02:14] And that's it, folks.

[01:02:16] I mean, what an incredible conversation with Joanne Coates.

[01:02:20] In this episode, we explored her journey from her rural class working upbringing

[01:02:25] to becoming a celebrated visual artist.

[01:02:28] Jo's dedication to telling stories of rural communities and working class women

[01:02:32] through her photography, I think is nothing short of inspiring.

[01:02:35] She reminds us that behind every landscape and every face lies a story waiting to be told.

[01:02:41] We also heard how documentary photography can be a powerful tool for change.

[01:02:46] Jo's work challenges stereotypes, highlighting hidden stories, and empowers the voices of those

[01:02:52] often overlooked.

[01:02:53] By collaborating with her subjects and allowing them to shape their narratives,

[01:02:59] Jo shows us how art can foster connection, spark dialogue, and even shift perspective on

[01:03:05] important social issues.

[01:03:06] Her belief in the transformative power of storytelling is a reminder that photography

[01:03:11] can go beyond aesthetics, and it can create real impact in people's lives.

[01:03:18] As always, people, if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to follow the Camera Café Show

[01:03:22] and subscribe wherever you listen to us.

[01:03:24] And join us next time for more inspiring stories from the world of photography.

[01:03:29] Until then, keep exploring, keep creating, and keep on moving your photography.

[01:03:34] Adios!