“Will Hawkes: Capturing Tiny Voyagers and Insect Migrations”

[00:00:00] Every day after they've spent all night looking with their huge eyes because

[00:00:05] these huge eyes are so energy intensive. What the spiders do is they let their eyes

[00:00:12] break down so they use the energy of their eyes and so they break down the

[00:00:16] proteins and everything from their eyes to feed themselves during the day and

[00:00:21] then at night they build their eyes back up all the different enzymes and

[00:00:25] proteins and so they can see again and just imagine that sort of commitment

[00:00:31] getting your food is what really amazing little creatures.

[00:00:40] Greetings and welcome to another episode of The Camera Cafe Show, your go-to

[00:00:44] podcast for all things photography where we bring you intriguing conversations

[00:00:48] and captivating stories from photographers around the world. I'm your

[00:00:53] host Tom Jacob and today I'm so happy to have a very very special guest with me

[00:00:58] Dr. Will Hawkes, an esteemed entomologist from the UK working at the

[00:01:03] Swiss Bird Institute and by little chance he's also a passionate insect

[00:01:08] macro photographer. Will is here with us tonight to share his extra

[00:01:12] ordinary journey and shed some light on this mesmerizing world of tiny tiny

[00:01:17] insects through the lens of his camera. With an early love for all bucks

[00:01:22] Will has dedicated his life so far to unravel a bit all these mysteries of

[00:01:27] these tiny creatures and the wonderful journey they make as they migrate

[00:01:31] through our countries and I bet you didn't even knew they migrated right? Get

[00:01:35] ready to embark on a tiny exploring adventure as we talk about the beauty

[00:01:39] of insect life and the importance of visual storytelling through

[00:01:42] macro photography with Will. Let's get rolling! Good evening to the bug

[00:01:48] doctor now in the UK. How are you tonight Will? I'm amazing. Thanks Tom.

[00:01:53] I've just spent the day at the Natural History Museum identifying flies

[00:01:58] has been the best day. Identifying I thought I saw a tweet from you from

[00:02:03] flies from 1750 or something like this. They were real flies just

[00:02:09] posted on a book. Exactly it that was how they used to collect the

[00:02:13] specimens was by pressing them in books like you'd press flowers and

[00:02:18] say they're these beautiful flies from the 1700s but completely flat.

[00:02:25] I think we have to do a podcast one day about the Natural History Museum.

[00:02:30] Will it will be amazing. Absolutely. There are so so many stories to

[00:02:35] be told from their collections. So Will entomologist, tell me one

[00:02:40] moment when you knew you wanted to become entomologist when you

[00:02:44] knew you wanted to study all these little insects. I don't remember

[00:02:50] a time where I didn't want to be. My earliest memories involved

[00:02:56] going around crawling in the garden, finding the smallest of

[00:02:59] creatures and being able to grab them and hold them and look at

[00:03:02] them. I've always loved it. And ever since I was little, I've

[00:03:07] wanted to be an explorer going to new places, finding new

[00:03:10] things and new behaviors. Studying insects has been certainly my

[00:03:16] dream life. I love it. And over the past weeks will work wise what

[00:03:22] have you been doing? I've had it a really exciting few weeks

[00:03:26] actually Tom. So I think about three weeks ago I was in the

[00:03:30] south of Spain because for my job, which is at the Swiss

[00:03:34] Ornithological Institute, so the Swiss Bird Institute, we're

[00:03:38] studying insect migration. And to do this, we're putting up radars

[00:03:44] on each side of the Straits of Gibraltar to monitor the insects

[00:03:48] moving from Africa to Europe. And so I was down in the south of

[00:03:52] Spain, catching these insects finding the best place to put

[00:03:56] the radars and yes, and then I came back from that after a brief

[00:04:01] foray up into the Sierra Nevada mountains. And I was

[00:04:05] about 2500 meters up and just walking along a ridge line. And

[00:04:10] there were all of these insects just out on the snow. And so all

[00:04:14] of these insects, which rule migratory species, be migrating

[00:04:18] northwards. And then for some reason, maybe a cold blast of

[00:04:21] air robbed them of their energy. And they just dropped down

[00:04:25] onto the snow. And so the snow was littered with these

[00:04:28] cold little flies and aphids. And so I spent the whole day

[00:04:33] walking very slowly identifying them all, because it's a

[00:04:36] really important record to have these insects. 2500 meters up.

[00:04:41] It's it is really amazing. And then now I'm in the I'm in

[00:04:45] London at the Natural History Museum, working with Erica

[00:04:49] McAllister, who is the best fly person in the world. She's

[00:04:54] the fly queen. And we've been identifying lots of flies

[00:04:58] together. And it's very nerdy. It's very, it's really I

[00:05:02] love it so much. Just surrounded by my people.

[00:05:06] I can hear your passion in your voice, Will. So Will, your PhD,

[00:05:12] your findings that flies actually migrate throughout Europe?

[00:05:17] Give me a little

[00:05:20] Give me a bit of an insight if I was you know, if I was the

[00:05:22] hoverfly living in Sweden, my life would be what?

[00:05:26] Okay, yes. So if you're a Swedish hoverfly, let's take it

[00:05:30] from late summer, and you've you're the little maggoty lava,

[00:05:36] the young the child of the hoverfly, and your sat on your

[00:05:41] leaf, your eating aphids. But at the same time, you're taking

[00:05:45] note of the weather patterns. So if it's getting a bit colder

[00:05:49] day to day, if the light levels are reducing, and you're

[00:05:53] taking all this information on, and all this information will

[00:05:56] change your, your entire body. So it will cause a shift in

[00:06:00] your genetics to make you bigger and stronger, and increase

[00:06:04] your ability to see increase your flight performance when

[00:06:07] you become an adult, which is amazing. And the bodies of the

[00:06:11] hoverflies change this way, because they need to migrate.

[00:06:15] And because they need to escape the really harsh northern

[00:06:19] European winters. And so when you stop being a lava,

[00:06:23] this little maggot, you change into this beautiful marmalade

[00:06:26] hoverfly, and with orange and yellow and black down, down the

[00:06:32] back. And actually, you'll be female at this point because

[00:06:36] they only the females complete their journeys in the

[00:06:40] migration. And so they get up, and they fly up into the

[00:06:44] sky, and then they take note of which way the wind is

[00:06:47] going. And so if the winds are blowing south, which is the

[00:06:50] way the hoverflies want to fly, then they'll hop onto these

[00:06:54] winds and be blown south. Because this is the fastest way for

[00:06:57] them to travel. But if they're blowing in the wrong direction,

[00:07:00] and they'll know this, and they'll just sit down and wait

[00:07:03] for the winds to change. They can find which direction they

[00:07:07] want to go in based on the sun in the sky, they use the

[00:07:10] sun as a compass, which is really amazing. My friend and

[00:07:14] colleague, Richard Massey, he worked out that the

[00:07:18] hoverflies know where they want to go. And they can, as the sun

[00:07:22] moves across the sky, they can track where the sun is in

[00:07:26] relation to where they want to go. So they've got this tiny

[00:07:28] clock in their heads as well. And it's amazing. So this

[00:07:32] little hoverfly is flying south, right across the plains of

[00:07:36] Europe, and then all the way through the Pyrenees, which

[00:07:40] is where I studied them during my PhD, and then down to

[00:07:44] the Straits of Gibraltar, we think. And then maybe, well,

[00:07:48] maybe some of them will overwinter there because it's

[00:07:50] quite mild weather. But we think that quite a lot of them

[00:07:54] will actually carry on the journey right to Sub-Saharan

[00:07:58] Africa, which is ridiculous. This animal is about 20

[00:08:01] millimeters, two centimeters long. Yet she can migrate

[00:08:05] from Sweden to Senegal, which is thousands of

[00:08:08] kilometers. And then she'll spend the winter in

[00:08:12] Senegal, and then her children will then start the

[00:08:16] migration back up northwards. And they migrate northwards in

[00:08:21] a series of generational hops. Each generation will migrate

[00:08:26] about 100 or 200 kilometers northwards, find a good place

[00:08:30] to lay their eggs, so lots of wildflowers and other food

[00:08:34] around. And then they'll lay the eggs and then the

[00:08:37] adults will die off. And then the children hatch and

[00:08:41] they will never ever meet their parents. They'll never

[00:08:43] meet an experienced migratory individual. And so their

[00:08:48] entire migratory behavior, where to go, how to get

[00:08:51] there, what cues to use is all inside them is the

[00:08:55] genetic information, which is really quite amazing.

[00:08:59] And we're starting to think that the DNA, which is

[00:09:03] passed on from the parents to the offspring,

[00:09:06] actually contains a lot more than just what the

[00:09:10] animal looks like. It might even transfer behavior or

[00:09:16] even memory as a certain form of it. And it's a really

[00:09:19] exciting field to be in. And I love it. And these

[00:09:24] hoverflies doing these huge journeys is the most

[00:09:27] remarkable of journeys and lives.

[00:09:30] I mean, it's so remarkable will because I think now

[00:09:34] of every 100 people listening to the podcast, I think

[00:09:36] only two people they will know that flies migrate.

[00:09:40] It's amazing really are very, very tiny insects. And so

[00:09:45] there comes two questions in mind will about this.

[00:09:48] That first, why they have it built in their DNA to

[00:09:52] make this journey? And second, why isn't important?

[00:09:57] We know the migrate. So the reason that these

[00:10:01] flies and other insects like dragonflies and

[00:10:04] butterflies migrate is to remain in an area which

[00:10:08] has enough resources for them to reproduce, for them

[00:10:12] to keep having children. So they will migrate to

[00:10:17] an area which has loads of resources. And then

[00:10:20] when these resources run out, if it gets too hot

[00:10:22] or too cold, then instead of a resident insect, say

[00:10:27] a type of solitary bee, which will just hibernate,

[00:10:30] the migratory insects will just move on again

[00:10:33] and they'll find a new place. And so compared to a

[00:10:36] sedentary insect, they can have far, far more

[00:10:39] children and be far more successful. Yeah, so that's

[00:10:43] the reason why they migrate is just to make sure

[00:10:47] they keep having children all year round. And their

[00:10:51] importance is actually huge but very misunderstood

[00:10:56] from a human point of view. And maybe more

[00:11:00] than misunderstood, we just don't know anything

[00:11:02] about it. And so part of my research was to go

[00:11:07] to these places where we see a lot of migrants

[00:11:10] and then identify every single type of insect

[00:11:13] there was moving through an un-migration.

[00:11:17] Before I did this research, we thought that

[00:11:21] it was only really the butterflies or the

[00:11:23] dragonflies. You know, the monarch butterfly is

[00:11:25] a well known migrant. And then maybe the

[00:11:27] globe schema dragonfly is kind of well known.

[00:11:29] We thought these were the most common creatures.

[00:11:31] But when I did this research, we found that 90%

[00:11:35] of all migratory insects are the flies. And we

[00:11:38] didn't really know anything about what these

[00:11:40] insects did. But through this research, we've

[00:11:43] worked out that almost all of the insects

[00:11:46] are pollinators, which is obviously very

[00:11:50] important for all of our human crops. And

[00:11:53] the importance with the pollinators being

[00:11:55] migratory is that they can transfer genes

[00:11:58] from one population of plants to another

[00:12:00] population of plants, which a resident

[00:12:03] insect couldn't do. And this allows the

[00:12:07] health of the plant populations to be improved

[00:12:09] hugely and also from a climate crisis

[00:12:14] point of view. If we're experiencing more

[00:12:18] droughts, then the insects could transfer

[00:12:22] the genes from a plant population in the

[00:12:24] south, which might be more resistant to

[00:12:26] drought, to a plant population in the

[00:12:28] north, which isn't resistant yet. But by

[00:12:30] the insects moving these genes, they can

[00:12:32] become resistant far quicker, which is

[00:12:35] really incredible. So many insects are also

[00:12:38] decomposers. And so they'll break down all

[00:12:41] the organic matter, which could be just

[00:12:43] rotting away. And so they're very important

[00:12:45] for reducing disease in that way because

[00:12:48] it stops all this rotting happening. And

[00:12:51] perhaps most amazingly, is that all of

[00:12:54] these insects have nutrients in their

[00:12:57] bodies, which they move across the world.

[00:13:00] And the nutrients that they have in their

[00:13:02] bodies are things like phosphorus and

[00:13:05] nitrogen, which are elements which are

[00:13:06] really vital for plant growth. And because

[00:13:11] so, so many insects migrate, we think

[00:13:14] about three and a half trillion insects

[00:13:16] migrate over just southern England every

[00:13:19] single year, which is a believably

[00:13:22] huge number that all the nutrients in

[00:13:24] their bodies could be really helping the

[00:13:27] plants get a boost of nutrients in, say,

[00:13:32] the early springtime and allowing the

[00:13:34] plants to grow and improving the soil

[00:13:37] quality, etc. etc. And that sort of thing

[00:13:41] is just really, really fascinating to me

[00:13:44] because we don't really know anything

[00:13:45] about it, but it could be absolutely

[00:13:47] vital. And that's not even talking about

[00:13:50] the impact it has on all the larger

[00:13:53] animals. So many types of birds are

[00:13:56] insectivorous, they eat insects. And

[00:13:59] because insect migrants have so many

[00:14:01] children, they're really, really

[00:14:03] abundant. So things like the cabbage

[00:14:05] white butterfly, the marmalade hoverfly,

[00:14:07] the red admiral butterfly, these are all

[00:14:09] very common insects, but they're all

[00:14:12] migratory. And so all the birds are

[00:14:15] eating them. And then all the things

[00:14:17] that eat the birds are eating, relying

[00:14:20] on the insects as well and the

[00:14:21] flowers are relying on the insects to

[00:14:23] be pollinated. And so these migratory

[00:14:26] insects are perhaps the most

[00:14:29] underappreciated but vital part or one

[00:14:32] of the most vital parts of our

[00:14:34] ecosystems. And I feel so, so lucky to

[00:14:38] be able to study them and tell their

[00:14:40] stories.

[00:14:42] Now we touch a bit of subject will

[00:14:44] of climate crisis. What do you think

[00:14:47] what should be our main worry if we

[00:14:50] don't reverse things a bit soon?

[00:14:53] So I think our main worry will be in

[00:14:57] the main impact of these insects

[00:14:59] declining. So there was a paper showing

[00:15:02] that in the last 50 or so years,

[00:15:04] there's been a 97 97% decline in

[00:15:10] migratory hoverfly species, which is

[00:15:13] an unbelievable amount. And this

[00:15:16] could have impacts on the amount of

[00:15:17] pollination that happens. Also,

[00:15:19] these hoverflies are pest controllers.

[00:15:22] And so they all eat aphids which destroy

[00:15:25] crops. And so without these insects,

[00:15:27] these pest species could get really

[00:15:30] high in number and obviously having a

[00:15:32] lot of impact on our food security.

[00:15:36] And so obviously that's a really big

[00:15:38] worry that all these ecological

[00:15:40] roles we call them the pollination,

[00:15:42] the decomposition, etc. could go as

[00:15:45] a result of these insects going. But

[00:15:47] what is really nice is that these

[00:15:49] insects are amazing and resilient.

[00:15:51] Although we've seen a huge, huge

[00:15:54] decline in recent years with the

[00:15:57] planting of more wildflowers from

[00:15:59] councils and local governments from

[00:16:02] people being more interested. We've

[00:16:04] really been seeing some insects

[00:16:07] recovering, which is amazing because

[00:16:10] they have so many children, right? If

[00:16:11] they if we give them the space to

[00:16:13] grow, be safe, then we can really

[00:16:17] see them increase and then us as

[00:16:20] humans can benefit from their

[00:16:22] ecological roles. So they are going

[00:16:25] on some innovating conservation

[00:16:27] strategies there in the UK, will?

[00:16:30] So in a way, yes, people are

[00:16:33] becoming more in touch with nature,

[00:16:36] I believe. They're realising how

[00:16:38] important nature is to things to

[00:16:41] make your head feel better or

[00:16:43] to protect the local wildlife. And

[00:16:47] so we're seeing in the UK a lot of

[00:16:49] local councils planting wildflowers

[00:16:51] on roundabouts or on the sides of

[00:16:53] streets. And it's amazing actually

[00:16:56] seeing how all these little animals

[00:16:59] are just making use of it and taking

[00:17:01] advantage of us helping them. So

[00:17:03] there's a very rare butterfly called

[00:17:05] a large blue butterfly. And it was

[00:17:08] reintroduced because it went extinct

[00:17:10] in the UK. It was reintroduced to

[00:17:12] a part of Western UK to a tiny

[00:17:14] little area. And then there is an

[00:17:17] impetus, a project to put wildflowers

[00:17:21] all along the sides of the train

[00:17:22] tracks. And then so this

[00:17:25] butterfly, which we thought would

[00:17:26] just stay in one place suddenly has

[00:17:29] dispersed right along these train

[00:17:30] tracks because there's loads of food

[00:17:33] for it. And it's the same for

[00:17:34] migratory insects. One of the most

[00:17:36] important conservation strategies to

[00:17:39] help these little migrants is to

[00:17:41] connect, give them a pathway

[00:17:44] across the continent. And the way

[00:17:47] that we can do this is to put

[00:17:49] wildflowers on farmers' fields

[00:17:51] because farmers own the most land.

[00:17:53] And so by putting wildflowers all

[00:17:55] along the edges of the fields, then

[00:17:58] it can be a really beneficial

[00:17:59] pathway for the insects and really

[00:18:01] important for the farmers because

[00:18:03] it allows the crops to be

[00:18:05] pollinated in all the amazing

[00:18:07] ecological roles to be filled.

[00:18:10] And there are some insect species

[00:18:12] more vulnerable than other species?

[00:18:15] Yes, exactly. There's a lot of

[00:18:19] insects which sometimes seem a bit

[00:18:21] like evolutionary dead end because

[00:18:23] they rely on a very, very specific

[00:18:26] type of flower and they can only

[00:18:28] get food from that flower or they

[00:18:30] rely on one specific sort of tree

[00:18:32] which has one specific sort

[00:18:36] of sap running out of it. And

[00:18:38] that is the type of hoverfly that

[00:18:40] relies on this and without that

[00:18:42] tree, then that hoverfly would go

[00:18:44] extinct because it's found this

[00:18:47] niche so it doesn't have

[00:18:48] competition from other insects.

[00:18:50] And that's what it needs to survive.

[00:18:52] So some certainly are very vulnerable.

[00:18:54] Ones which aren't so vulnerable

[00:18:56] are the ones which are relying

[00:18:58] on us. So we're planting

[00:19:00] loads of broccoli, lots of other

[00:19:01] vegetables and these insects are

[00:19:03] eating them. And so we're

[00:19:05] giving them loads of food and so

[00:19:06] those insects are doing really well.

[00:19:10] Let's get a bit on to the gear

[00:19:12] question that we all like.

[00:19:14] So we all saw your images on

[00:19:16] social media, on your website,

[00:19:18] amazing macro photography.

[00:19:20] What equipment are you using

[00:19:21] nowadays?

[00:19:23] So I am using a Sony

[00:19:26] camera. I'm using a Sony

[00:19:28] A7R4 and I

[00:19:31] really love it. It's...

[00:19:33] I've only recently got it

[00:19:34] and I moved from a Nikon D500

[00:19:37] which I absolutely loved.

[00:19:39] But I decided to go mirrorless

[00:19:41] and I love how light it is

[00:19:44] and I've never had a full frame

[00:19:45] camera before.

[00:19:47] Yeah, it's so powerful.

[00:19:49] I don't think I'm making the most

[00:19:51] of it, but it feels like there's

[00:19:53] so much room for me to grow with

[00:19:54] photography using this using

[00:19:55] this camera.

[00:19:57] Most of my macro images are taken

[00:19:59] with a Sigma 105

[00:20:01] F2.8 lens, which

[00:20:04] I love. And

[00:20:06] yeah, and I also have a 24 to 70

[00:20:08] sort of wider angle thing

[00:20:10] which I use for landscapes.

[00:20:12] I love how versatile it is

[00:20:13] because I've also got a tiny

[00:20:15] little pancake lens so I can

[00:20:17] throw the whole camera in my

[00:20:18] little running backpack

[00:20:20] and it's so light and I can

[00:20:22] run and if I

[00:20:23] am not missing anything

[00:20:25] because I've got this

[00:20:26] amazing, incredible camera

[00:20:28] with me and just the

[00:20:30] portability with all...

[00:20:32] I'm truly in love with it.

[00:20:35] And how does photography

[00:20:37] helps you in your own field

[00:20:39] of work, Will?

[00:20:41] So for me, I love

[00:20:44] having my camera with me

[00:20:46] because it allows me to

[00:20:48] obviously take the photos and then

[00:20:49] use those photos as a way

[00:20:51] of explaining to people

[00:20:53] and telling stories about

[00:20:55] the insects.

[00:20:56] So I've got a photo of

[00:20:58] a hoverfly coming over

[00:21:00] this mountain pass and it's just

[00:21:02] about... it's flying past some

[00:21:04] thistles and hoverflies

[00:21:06] are small creatures as they're

[00:21:07] migrating.

[00:21:08] But in that same image, there's

[00:21:10] a tiny, tiny little fly,

[00:21:12] a chloropodid fly, a grass

[00:21:14] fly. And it's about 1.2, 1.3

[00:21:16] millimeters long.

[00:21:17] It's absolutely minuscule.

[00:21:19] But it just shows how tiny

[00:21:21] the insects are that migrate

[00:21:23] and by having that image, it can

[00:21:25] really portray to people

[00:21:27] the size differences because

[00:21:28] otherwise it might seem a bit

[00:21:30] arbitrary, you know.

[00:21:31] And we're all

[00:21:33] we're all visual creatures as

[00:21:35] humans. And so I love having

[00:21:37] my camera with me to share the

[00:21:39] stories.

[00:21:40] It's also really important for

[00:21:42] making sure I identify the

[00:21:43] creatures properly by taking a

[00:21:45] good macro photo.

[00:21:46] I can take these record shots

[00:21:48] and be sure that I'm not missing

[00:21:50] any of the identification features.

[00:21:53] I kind of see my camera as a way

[00:21:54] of another facet of

[00:21:56] storytelling.

[00:21:58] And yeah, I really love it for

[00:22:00] that.

[00:22:02] We discussed already that the

[00:22:04] main drive of a photographer

[00:22:06] should be passion, no matter

[00:22:08] the genre you do.

[00:22:11] You think in this genre

[00:22:14] macro photography, your

[00:22:15] passion are clearly insects.

[00:22:17] And by this, you already know

[00:22:19] their behavior also.

[00:22:21] How important you think this is

[00:22:23] to get good macro

[00:22:24] pictures?

[00:22:26] I would say is my

[00:22:28] my most important skill,

[00:22:30] I think, or my most important

[00:22:32] facet of photography is

[00:22:34] not the photography itself.

[00:22:36] It's knowing about the subject

[00:22:38] and the knowing about the insects.

[00:22:40] My hero is a

[00:22:42] French entomologist, French

[00:22:44] insect study from the early

[00:22:46] 1900s called Jean-Henri Fabre

[00:22:49] and his whole life was

[00:22:52] just sitting and watching

[00:22:54] insects and writing

[00:22:56] books about them.

[00:22:56] And he wasn't

[00:22:59] something, someone that

[00:23:00] collected loads of insects

[00:23:02] and ripped them apart

[00:23:04] and looked at their insides.

[00:23:05] He was someone that looked at

[00:23:07] their lives and how they moved

[00:23:08] and how they interacted.

[00:23:10] And that's what I've done

[00:23:13] with my life is just watched

[00:23:14] these insects.

[00:23:15] And it just allows me to

[00:23:19] be in the right place at the

[00:23:20] right time for the photos.

[00:23:22] So, for example, there are

[00:23:23] some, there are some little

[00:23:25] wasps called oxybielus

[00:23:27] uniglomus, a spiny tail digger

[00:23:29] wasp, which is a really,

[00:23:30] really beautiful little creature

[00:23:32] with big blue eyes and a long,

[00:23:34] but not very long.

[00:23:35] It's only about eight millimetres

[00:23:37] long, but its end of its tail

[00:23:39] is really spiny and really

[00:23:41] spiky.

[00:23:42] And this creature will go off

[00:23:44] and this is a bit of a gruesome

[00:23:45] story, but she will go off

[00:23:47] and find a little fly

[00:23:49] which she wants to eat or at least

[00:23:50] wants to bring back to her nest.

[00:23:52] And then she will sting

[00:23:54] the fly, paralyze it and then

[00:23:57] fly back.

[00:23:58] But the flies, she can't

[00:23:59] really grab it with her legs.

[00:24:01] And so she'll stab into the fly

[00:24:03] with her tail and then carry

[00:24:05] which the spiky tail and then

[00:24:07] she'll carry it right back to

[00:24:09] her nest and then run

[00:24:11] along the ground, uncover her

[00:24:12] nest, which was covered in sand

[00:24:14] and then dash inside.

[00:24:16] And so I know through

[00:24:18] through knowing this that I can

[00:24:19] wait by the nest because I know

[00:24:20] she'll come back for it.

[00:24:22] And I know that this behavior

[00:24:23] will happen, which is a really

[00:24:24] exciting little piece.

[00:24:26] But then I also know

[00:24:27] from watching them and reading

[00:24:29] books and knowing the subject

[00:24:31] that the reason that she'd

[00:24:33] had to cover up her nest

[00:24:35] was because that there's another

[00:24:37] sort of insect type of fly

[00:24:39] which is called a satellite fly

[00:24:41] because it circles her.

[00:24:43] And that little fly wants

[00:24:45] to find out where the wasps

[00:24:47] nest is so it can dash

[00:24:49] inside and lay the fly's

[00:24:52] own eggs on the wasps

[00:24:54] children so that flying

[00:24:56] can eat the wasps children.

[00:24:58] It's so brutal and bloodthirsty.

[00:25:01] But by knowing all these

[00:25:03] wonderful little lives and stories

[00:25:06] allows me to get that split

[00:25:08] set and advantage when

[00:25:10] to take the photo or to be

[00:25:12] in the right place at the right time.

[00:25:14] And yes, there's

[00:25:16] so many parts to photography

[00:25:18] that have been improved from my

[00:25:20] sort of love and passion

[00:25:22] for for insects.

[00:25:25] It's an amazing world

[00:25:26] will I never I'm always

[00:25:28] in awe also myself

[00:25:30] when I make my macro pictures

[00:25:33] because even if I know a bit

[00:25:35] what would go on, they change.

[00:25:38] They surprise me.

[00:25:39] They always do something different

[00:25:41] and you end up running behind

[00:25:43] them to make a picture.

[00:25:46] You got maybe some tips

[00:25:48] for people starting out in macro

[00:25:50] photography.

[00:25:52] Yes, definitely.

[00:25:54] I think my number one tip

[00:25:56] would be to learn to love.

[00:25:58] I mean, I'm sure if you wanted to

[00:26:00] get into macro photography

[00:26:01] already or I do love insects,

[00:26:04] but really learn to love

[00:26:06] them and read about them

[00:26:07] and spend time watching them.

[00:26:10] Be OK as well with missing

[00:26:13] almost every shot you take.

[00:26:15] I seem to

[00:26:17] to miss a lot of them.

[00:26:19] Yeah, I think I think passion

[00:26:21] and really taking an interest

[00:26:23] in these beautiful little creatures

[00:26:25] is my number one tip

[00:26:27] and be determined and patient.

[00:26:30] And I tend to not

[00:26:32] really plan my images.

[00:26:35] I have sort of idea

[00:26:37] of a photo that I might want

[00:26:39] or I might want to take a photo

[00:26:40] of this species, but I've found

[00:26:42] that with insects, you can

[00:26:43] no truly predict exactly

[00:26:45] what they're going to do.

[00:26:47] You can make it a little bit

[00:26:48] easier for yourself.

[00:26:48] So if you go out

[00:26:50] in a bit earlier in the daytime,

[00:26:52] you can catch the insects

[00:26:54] where when they're not quite as active

[00:26:57] because often in the heat of the day,

[00:26:58] they're so fast and they barely ever stop.

[00:27:01] And there are these types of bees.

[00:27:03] So a lot of male solitary bees,

[00:27:06] so not bumblebees and not honeybees,

[00:27:10] these little solitary creatures,

[00:27:12] a lot of the males don't have

[00:27:13] anywhere to sleep.

[00:27:14] They don't have any nests

[00:27:16] to go inside.

[00:27:17] And so what they'll do is at night,

[00:27:19] they'll go either on to the stems

[00:27:22] of plants and they'll use their teeth

[00:27:24] and they'll grab on.

[00:27:25] And so if you get up in the morning,

[00:27:26] you can take photos of them

[00:27:29] as they're clinging on to the stem

[00:27:31] still fast asleep.

[00:27:32] And that's really sweet.

[00:27:33] But also there are some species

[00:27:35] which will go inside flowers,

[00:27:38] which close up overnight.

[00:27:40] And so they have these lovely

[00:27:41] sort of flower sleeping bags.

[00:27:43] And so if you know this,

[00:27:45] you can wait for them to

[00:27:46] or maybe mark the flower,

[00:27:48] see them go into the flower at night

[00:27:50] and then mark it and then come back

[00:27:52] in the morning just before it opens.

[00:27:54] And you can get photos of these

[00:27:56] gorgeous little animals sleeping

[00:27:58] inside flowers.

[00:28:00] But I think that also just

[00:28:01] becomes comes under the heading

[00:28:03] of knowing your subject.

[00:28:05] I think with macro photography,

[00:28:06] that would be my most important thing

[00:28:09] and also sharing the stories

[00:28:11] afterwards so everyone gets

[00:28:12] interested in these insects.

[00:28:15] I'm going to throw this quick in

[00:28:17] that apart from the two pictures

[00:28:19] you just described of the bees,

[00:28:21] I took them and you have to go out

[00:28:23] early when they are still asleep.

[00:28:25] Me personally, I love to go out

[00:28:27] in the midday will.

[00:28:29] I love when it's busy.

[00:28:30] I love when they are feeding.

[00:28:32] I love when they are hunting.

[00:28:33] It gives a bit more of a kick

[00:28:35] just to throw this here inside

[00:28:36] if people are curious.

[00:28:37] My working schedule is midday.

[00:28:42] Yeah, definitely.

[00:28:44] It's so exciting in midday.

[00:28:46] You can see, as you say,

[00:28:48] the hunting is just like the Serengeti.

[00:28:50] Like there's huge robber flies

[00:28:53] coming in and attacking bees

[00:28:55] and all these insects fighting

[00:28:58] and making territories and mating.

[00:29:01] And midday is a very exciting time

[00:29:04] for an insect photographer.

[00:29:07] You touched one moment.

[00:29:08] Storytelling will how important

[00:29:11] is visual storytelling?

[00:29:13] Maybe to raise awareness.

[00:29:15] Photographers can raise awareness

[00:29:17] about nature life.

[00:29:18] So instead of one taking only a picture,

[00:29:21] making a whole story about it.

[00:29:25] Yeah, visual storytelling

[00:29:27] and almost any sort of storytelling

[00:29:29] for the insects, I would say,

[00:29:32] is hugely important because

[00:29:34] as an entomologist

[00:29:36] and someone that loves insects,

[00:29:37] I think our most important conservation tool

[00:29:41] is spreading interest

[00:29:43] and spreading the wonder of these little animals.

[00:29:47] And this could be knowing that a tiny little

[00:29:50] marmalade hoverfly that's in your garden

[00:29:52] or a cabbage white butterfly

[00:29:53] has just traveled thousands of kilometres to be there.

[00:29:56] And we have no idea that these things are happening.

[00:29:59] And being able to tell these stories

[00:30:02] and to make people interested

[00:30:04] is so important because without interest,

[00:30:07] I don't think there's any.

[00:30:08] Well, there isn't any passion.

[00:30:10] David Attenborough, the great man,

[00:30:13] said recently, what you don't know

[00:30:16] you cannot love.

[00:30:17] I think that's so important.

[00:30:19] And as photographers,

[00:30:20] we have this wonderful ability

[00:30:23] to share snapshots in time

[00:30:26] of beautiful animals, plants and our subjects.

[00:30:29] And by putting it out there,

[00:30:32] I don't know on Twitter or social media site

[00:30:35] or telling your friends, family exhibitions,

[00:30:38] it allows more people to be interested in the nature.

[00:30:41] And this can only have positive impacts

[00:30:45] getting more people fascinated

[00:30:47] because you're not going to want to destroy

[00:30:49] something that you don't that you love.

[00:30:51] And so I think this visual storytelling is

[00:30:55] what I sort of feel is almost the most important thing

[00:30:59] that we have in the world is to be able to tell stories,

[00:31:03] make people feel something, make them inspired

[00:31:06] or excited or sad even,

[00:31:09] and making people feel emotions

[00:31:13] through telling stories or your photographs.

[00:31:16] Is this quite a magical thing, I think.

[00:31:19] It's very important.

[00:31:20] We have to help them a bit, will and just like your photography,

[00:31:25] you have to find also your own voice

[00:31:27] of how you describe your photography.

[00:31:30] I know me as a photographer.

[00:31:32] I grew a lot and then I also grew a lot

[00:31:34] learning about insects because you become like almost obsessed.

[00:31:39] And I read a lot about them, but I forget the half

[00:31:42] when I have to write my tweet.

[00:31:44] So I kind of make them funny.

[00:31:45] And it's it's a way of making people stop reading my pictures

[00:31:50] and maybe loving these little these little animals.

[00:31:55] Yes, definitely.

[00:31:56] I think it's such a great thing to do.

[00:31:58] Even just the sharing of the photos themselves

[00:32:00] is such an important place.

[00:32:03] Well, photography wise,

[00:32:06] there is a moment or there is any species

[00:32:09] that you really wanted to capture

[00:32:11] and that you finally got and you were so, so, so very happy.

[00:32:16] Yes, I think I've got two sides here.

[00:32:19] There's one photo that I had wanted for so long.

[00:32:23] And then there's also an animal

[00:32:25] that I really want to take a photo of.

[00:32:27] So the one that I had almost planned out this image,

[00:32:31] there's this lovely creature called a longhorn bee.

[00:32:34] And it's a bee with antennae, which are longer than its own body.

[00:32:38] And when he flies, the antenna stream behind him

[00:32:42] and he looks very majestic.

[00:32:44] He lives down in Southwest England in the Cornish Coast.

[00:32:47] And I had this image in my head of one of these little species

[00:32:51] sat on his food plant, which is this bright yellow kidney vetch

[00:32:55] with out of focus other flowers like the pink sea thrift behind it.

[00:33:02] And then this habitat, which is the blue Cornish Sea

[00:33:07] and the soft clay cliffs.

[00:33:09] And I had this image in my head

[00:33:11] and I'd had it for a couple of years, really.

[00:33:14] And one day everything came perfectly.

[00:33:17] I'd arrived a little bit earlier in the morning to this site

[00:33:20] where all the bees were living.

[00:33:21] And just by chance, there was one of these gorgeous longhorn bees

[00:33:25] just sat cleaning his antenna before going

[00:33:28] and starting flying because they used their antenna to smell

[00:33:31] and to sense all these things.

[00:33:34] So he was sat on the kidney vetch with a pink purple sea thrift

[00:33:38] behind him, the blue Cornish Sea and the soft clay banks.

[00:33:41] And yeah, it was just one of those moments

[00:33:44] where everything had aligned and I really,

[00:33:47] really enjoyed taking that photo.

[00:33:49] And then the animal that most love, love to take a photo of

[00:33:55] is one that is a little bit scary for some people.

[00:33:57] But I think that they're fascinating enough to get over the fear

[00:34:01] and they're called a ogre faced spider and they don't live in Europe.

[00:34:06] They live in Indonesia.

[00:34:08] And I think they also live in South America as well.

[00:34:11] And these really remarkable spiders, they're fairly large sort of.

[00:34:17] I mean, all their legs would fit in your palm,

[00:34:19] but probably only just so they're pretty large spiders.

[00:34:23] But instead of building a web to sit in,

[00:34:26] they make their own web almost like a net,

[00:34:29] which they hold in their hands or their legs.

[00:34:33] And then they sit over the paths of maybe an ant path or a termite path,

[00:34:39] anything which insects are using during the night

[00:34:42] and they they loom over the over the path.

[00:34:45] And then when an insect comes along, they throw the net down

[00:34:48] and capture the insect.

[00:34:50] And they have these huge eyes which are perfect for seeing in the dark.

[00:34:54] And I would love to take a photo of one the spider

[00:34:57] and if I could get it actually throwing the net and catching something,

[00:35:03] that would be incredible.

[00:35:04] And they have such an incredible life history as well,

[00:35:07] or story of their lives because every day

[00:35:11] after they've spent all night looking with their huge eyes

[00:35:14] because these huge eyes are so energy intensive,

[00:35:19] what the spiders do is they let their eyes break down

[00:35:22] so they use the energy of their eyes

[00:35:25] so they break down the proteins and everything

[00:35:27] from their eyes to feed themselves during the day.

[00:35:30] And then at night they build their eyes back up

[00:35:33] or the different enzymes and proteins

[00:35:35] and so they can see again and just imagine that sort of

[00:35:40] commitment getting your food is what?

[00:35:44] Really amazing little creatures.

[00:35:47] And I think that's only two percent of what we know of them will

[00:35:51] and this is already amazing. Exactly.

[00:35:54] So imagine what's actually I was, but we still don't know about them.

[00:35:58] Exactly. I was talking about this today.

[00:36:01] We're talking about how many species are known

[00:36:03] and how many aren't known.

[00:36:05] So we know that we've described

[00:36:08] 125,000 species of fly, which feels like a lot of flies.

[00:36:14] But a recent paper has come out predicting that just one single family

[00:36:19] of these flies contains an estimated 1.8 million.

[00:36:24] So just one family could contain 18 times the amount

[00:36:28] that we actually know about of all types of fly.

[00:36:32] So it could be in the region of 10 million or more fly species in the world.

[00:36:36] And we only know 125,000 of them.

[00:36:39] This is why it's so important to have things like museums

[00:36:42] and people interested is because then we learn more.

[00:36:46] If we don't know what these species are, we don't know what they can do

[00:36:50] and how they impact their natural ecosystems, how they can impact us.

[00:36:54] And and also just we don't know their amazing stories.

[00:36:59] And these flies can turn up anywhere.

[00:37:01] There's this one type of midge which lives in a cave in Croatia.

[00:37:07] And it lives almost a kilometer under the ground.

[00:37:10] It's a troglobiant, which means cave liver.

[00:37:13] And it's only it never ever leaves the cave.

[00:37:17] And it's the only animal in the world that lives purely in the cave

[00:37:21] but can also fly.

[00:37:23] And we thought that these little midges must have developed

[00:37:27] something to help them in these situations.

[00:37:30] So maybe they've got big antenna to sense, I don't know, the echoes

[00:37:35] or maybe some sort of sonar system to help them move around.

[00:37:39] But what they have is far more, well, far less elegant.

[00:37:43] And what they have is just really, really long legs.

[00:37:46] And so they fly around and then they crash into the wall

[00:37:49] and they realize they can't go that way.

[00:37:50] So they go a different way.

[00:37:52] And it's even more incredibly that every single one of these midges

[00:37:56] is female and so they're all women.

[00:37:59] And so what they do is that they just clone themselves.

[00:38:03] It's called pathogenesis.

[00:38:05] And so there are no males, there's no sexual reproduction in these species.

[00:38:10] It's just incredible that life has found a way to live so far under the ground

[00:38:14] and is doing well through it.

[00:38:18] All these stories to tell.

[00:38:19] I love it so much.

[00:38:22] Well, as an entomologist, so tomorrow, let's say you find this new species of fly.

[00:38:29] You can actually name them.

[00:38:30] You already picked a name for it or not?

[00:38:35] I if I did find any species of fly, I wonder why would call it.

[00:38:42] So it's not the done thing anymore to name it after yourself.

[00:38:46] You've got to name it after something around.

[00:38:49] Maybe maybe you can name it after your partner.

[00:38:52] Would I do that?

[00:38:53] Maybe we'll see how I'm feeling at that time.

[00:38:57] Or you can name it after how it looks or a famous person.

[00:39:02] Hmm. I wonder why would name it?

[00:39:05] Maybe after my dog.

[00:39:06] I really like my dog.

[00:39:08] It's the good idea.

[00:39:10] Will Shermie, like the most memorable moment or the most memorable encounter

[00:39:16] you had while you study insects?

[00:39:20] Oh, I think there was one day when I was studying insects in in Cyprus.

[00:39:25] I was right out on the very tip of the panhandle of Cyprus

[00:39:30] in the far northeast.

[00:39:32] And we were watching these migratory insects as they were coming from the east.

[00:39:37] And so they were crossing at least 110 kilometres of ocean

[00:39:42] from the Middle East to Cyprus.

[00:39:45] And one day there were just so, so many of them.

[00:39:50] It started off by hundreds and hundreds of thousands

[00:39:54] of these big dragonflies arriving and they would just swarm all around our heads.

[00:39:59] They were eating the smaller insects like the hoverflies.

[00:40:03] There are loads of butterflies, loads of swifts and swallows,

[00:40:06] these birds eating everything, just this cacophony of life in this one little area.

[00:40:12] And then about one o'clock or two o'clock, things just stepped up a gear.

[00:40:18] There were so many.

[00:40:20] We calculated that every single minute in every metre squared,

[00:40:25] there was 6,000 insects.

[00:40:27] 6,000 insects per metre per minute coming through this area of Cyprus.

[00:40:32] This equates to I think it was 11 million came

[00:40:36] onto that tiny little 100 metre wide area of Cyprus that that one day.

[00:40:42] And a lot of these insects were

[00:40:46] stable flies or stimoxes and they're a type of fly which has evolved

[00:40:51] to suck the blood of big mammals like us or cows.

[00:40:57] They only do it once.

[00:40:58] They're quite sensible because and quite nice about it

[00:41:01] because they only do it to give their children the protein meal they need.

[00:41:05] But also there are millions of them and they were all attacking us.

[00:41:09] And we had to hide behind car doors and we had to shelter

[00:41:13] because there were just so, so many insects.

[00:41:16] The skies were darkening with them.

[00:41:18] It was, yeah, unforgettable.

[00:41:22] But you had so much sense of hiding in your guard, I imagine,

[00:41:25] because it would be very difficult standing outside there while they fly around.

[00:41:30] Yeah, I must admit, I was wasn't actually hiding in the car.

[00:41:34] The rest of my team was I was still outside trying to catch them and count them

[00:41:38] and getting bitten all the time and feeling like,

[00:41:43] oh, I could just let this one bite me because then her children have a meal

[00:41:46] and feeling guilty if I brushed it off and true love, Tom.

[00:41:52] True love and passion and being a little bit of a nerd.

[00:41:56] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:41:59] Well, I have one closing question that always pops in my mind.

[00:42:05] You know, when humankind, when somebody someday would be so dumb enough

[00:42:10] to push that red button and start a nuclear war,

[00:42:14] they always say that cockroaches, they would survive.

[00:42:18] Would they actually survive and be able to reproduce?

[00:42:24] So if there was a cockroach right under a nuclear blast,

[00:42:29] I don't think it would survive, but I don't think it would have to be

[00:42:33] so far away for to actually survive and reproduce.

[00:42:37] And there's a story around this.

[00:42:39] There's the biggie, the bikini atoll is an island at all

[00:42:44] island chain out in the out in the Pacific, a few 3000 kilometres

[00:42:50] east of Papua New Guinea and New Zealand.

[00:42:53] And in the 1940s, it was used by the Americans to test nuclear bombs.

[00:42:58] And so it was completely erased.

[00:43:01] But very soon after these dragonflies returned

[00:43:06] because they were migrating through and they were coming back

[00:43:09] and they came onto the island and then they probably are part

[00:43:12] of a migratory route that goes right across the Pacific,

[00:43:15] which is waiting for us to discover.

[00:43:17] But insects are so resilient, they're so remarkable.

[00:43:22] And you only need a few of them to survive and they can survive anywhere.

[00:43:26] And so I think even if this nuclear blast killed all of us humans,

[00:43:32] these insects, I think will be fine and they'll find a way to come back,

[00:43:37] which gives me so much hope for the damage that we're currently doing

[00:43:41] to the insect populations, because just a little bit of love and a little bit

[00:43:45] of passion and interest in these little animals, they will reward us hugely

[00:43:50] by gaining in their number and then providing all the vitally important

[00:43:54] ecological roles that we as humans and the rest of the natural world

[00:43:59] reliable. They're really amazing, remarkable little animals.

[00:44:05] They are really amazing.

[00:44:06] So everybody listening now next time you find a bee in your house,

[00:44:10] please don't kill it.

[00:44:11] You take a glass and you put it outside and you give your little help to them.

[00:44:15] Well, last question and then take photo and then take a photo.

[00:44:19] Sorry. Last question.

[00:44:21] What's the name of your dog?

[00:44:24] Aira, which means snow in Welsh.

[00:44:26] But then I also have Ren and also Una and Una is blind and deaf

[00:44:32] and she was born that way and she's so capable.

[00:44:34] It's so nice.

[00:44:36] She can just go around the garden finding her way.

[00:44:40] So you have to find three kinds of flies will exactly.

[00:44:45] Well, it's been an amazing talk.

[00:44:47] Thank you very much.

[00:44:48] I've learned again a little bit while we are sitting here now.

[00:44:53] I wish you the best in your findings.

[00:44:56] We'll keep in touch.

[00:44:57] I hope I will see one day a fly with your name on it or your dog's name on it.

[00:45:02] Thanks, Tom.

[00:45:03] I really love being on this podcast.

[00:45:06] Thanks a lot, Will and all the best for now.

[00:45:08] See you soon. Bye.

[00:45:10] Bye.

[00:45:12] As we wrap up today's episode,

[00:45:14] I hope you've been captivated as I have by the fascinating stories shared by Will

[00:45:19] from all these little tiny delicate details of insect life

[00:45:22] to the importance of visual storytelling.

[00:45:25] There's much to learn and appreciate.

[00:45:27] Will has shown us the beauty and wonder

[00:45:30] if you care to look around in your garden that surrounds us every day there.

[00:45:34] If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to follow and subscribe to us

[00:45:38] on all your favorite social media platforms

[00:45:40] to stay updated on upcoming episodes with photographers.

[00:45:44] And you know you can find all the show notes back on our website

[00:45:47] and no more about Will and his bugs.

[00:45:50] We are leaving you today with a quote from Thomas Eisner,

[00:45:54] a German-American entomologist and ecologist who said

[00:45:57] the bugs are not going to inherit the earth.

[00:46:00] They already own it.

[00:46:01] So, we might as well make peace with the landlord.

[00:46:05] So now grab your camera, step outside and see the world through new eyes.

[00:46:09] Keep exploring, keep capturing and keep moving your photography.

[00:46:13] This is Tom Jacobs signing off from the Camera Cafe show.

[00:46:16] See you next time.