"Portraits of Change: The Art of Storytelling"

[00:00:00] I remember somebody saying, a friend of mine saying, my other friend such and such is saying, she's still doing that bloody project. And you know what it's like as photographers or as sensitive artistic human beings? You can have 100 positive comments and it's one little negative criticism.

[00:00:21] I just thought, oh, oh no, people are getting bored with this project, even though it was my project. And I was invited, interesting, I was invited to see, to go to this Impressions Gallery, which is one of the national contemporary galleries in the UK.

[00:00:38] Anne McNeil, she invited me to show her the work, not being in between, she went, we'd like to invite you to talk about your work. And I thought that they wanted me to have loads of ideas. So I sat there writing 100 ideas down,

[00:00:54] thinking all right, I'm gonna have to have loads of ideas. I kind of went to them. And I did have beautiful prints of being in between, but I didn't think they'd be interested, but I just said, okay, I've all these ideas

[00:01:04] and they stared at me and they were, what do you mean? I said, I'd like to do this. I'd like, we're not interested in Karen and we're interested in being in between. And I went, really? Because the whole negativity of one little comment

[00:01:16] made me think everybody would be thinking the same. Greetings and welcome to another episode of The Camera Cafe Show, where it is our goal to move your photography. I'm your host Tom Jacob and today we have again an inspiring

[00:01:33] and a bit longer as usual episode ready for you. We're joined tonight by the incredibly talented Carolyn Mendelssohn, a UK Nikon ambassador renowned for her evocative portraiture and storytelling and winning many awards along her journey. From her fascinating transition from being an actress

[00:01:51] to enter the world of photography, through her thought-provoking projects, Carolyn will share her journey, insights and her expertise with us. Whether you're an aspiring photographer or a seasoned pro, this episode is packed with valuable advice and inspiration to help you set your own goals

[00:02:07] and create those personal projects you have. So grab your favorite coffee, sit back and let's dive into the world of storytelling photography with Carolyn Mendelssohn. Let's get rolling. Good evening, Carolyn and thanks for coming tonight on our podcast. It's been amazing that we have you here

[00:02:27] for a nice little talk. Oh, it's lovely to be here, Tom. I'm really delighted to be able to kind of share my stories and my process with you. So thanks for inviting me. How was the UK the past week because I saw you finally had some sun?

[00:02:43] It's so hot, honestly. It's either at the moment, it's either flooding or it's really hot. So yeah, the temperature is high for us. It's humid, but it feels like summer, which is good. At last, I think because you had five months of winter.

[00:03:01] So at last it's coming now. You're seriously. Yeah. Karen, let's go a bit back when you were a little girl. And I think you talked about this image you called Forest in the Mist taken by your great uncle that captivated you so much.

[00:03:18] You think in any way this picture has influenced you a bit in your path to becoming a photographer or an artist? So yeah, indirectly. So as a child, my grandfather had this picture taken by my great uncle, Emile Vertyme. Beautiful picture.

[00:03:38] And as a small child, I would stand in front of it. It's a brain oil print, I think. And they're kind of trees. There's mist. There's possibly a figure in there. And I would just stand in front of it for hours imagining myself inside the picture.

[00:03:52] I loved it so much. And my grandfather passed that picture on to me. And I actually didn't intend on being a photographer. That wasn't part of my kind of story that I had invented in my head. But I think this picture resonated with me.

[00:04:11] So really when I look back and when I became a photographer, I was always searching to create images that were very compelling, that had the same quality. Even though that's a landscape and I'm a portrait photographer, my kind of dream is to create images

[00:04:27] that pull people in, that draw people in, which in a lot of ways, that picture that printed to me. You remember in an earlier talk we had, I told you about the picture that started that got me into photography. And I have the book.

[00:04:44] And when this comes out in YouTube, the people will see it, but I just show it one more time because... Oh yes, please. Yeah. My first photo book printed 1989 by Michael Freeman. It's this picture of Werner Bischoff, of an Hungarian boy in 1947 who's crying.

[00:05:01] And I know when I saw this picture, I was so amazed at what it could do to me that only a picture could make me be quiet, think and said, oh, I want to be a photographer. But with only seeing this and I remember this

[00:05:14] and this is from when I was 12 years old. Amazing. So had you always wanted to be a photographer? Was that your ambition? I knew I always liked it, then I went on to study film school. But it's more or less the same. It's picture related.

[00:05:31] I think I always wanted to tell stories in a way. So... I mean, I think that's it really, isn't it? Because my career path, I defined for myself as a child because I really wanted to be an actor. And I really wanted to.

[00:05:47] So I remember my parents telling me that there's no way I could do that. And that was my driver. That was like, OK, I will, I'll prove them wrong. And so I kind of focused all my energies on becoming a performer and actor. And then I didn't...

[00:06:06] I lived in quite a rural area. So there was no drama things. I just used to practice myself. But I was always excited by stories and imagination and people. And trained to be an actor. And then I moved into directing and then I moved into filmmaking.

[00:06:25] It's quite organic, really. And my... I think I moved into directing because I wanted to have greater control over how a story was told. And then I moved into filmmaking because I was interested in experimenting with how film projection could be used in performance.

[00:06:42] And then I started to be commissioned to make kind of film, to make independent and art film and film projections. And then... But it was always about telling story of people, of place, in a kind of quirky sort of way often and multi-layered as well.

[00:07:02] So I refused to pick up a camera. That was it, yeah. My parents were... Like my whole family always had cameras. And my whole life was documented from being really young. And my... When my life changed and I could no longer make film or perform,

[00:07:21] I felt very lost. You know, I'd always been creative. I'd always told stories and I felt totally lost. And I had a very, very young family and my husband gave me this camera and I ignored it. Honestly, I put it under my bed.

[00:07:38] Why is he giving me this? Why is he... Cameras are terrible. I loved photography and I love... You know, I liked going to see amazing work in exhibitions, but I didn't... I never saw myself as a photographer. But one day I picked up this camera

[00:07:56] and it was a total epiphany because it fitted beautifully in my hands. And I realised that I could tell stories within a single frame. And that was like the start of my journey really and I was totally obsessed. And how long it took you, Carolyn,

[00:08:14] to find your, let's say, your own voice in photography? You remember like the key moment that rang a bell that says that this is it? So initially... That's so interesting because initially I really loved it because I could play and be creative and mess about

[00:08:34] and create quite kind of interesting story-based images, but not necessarily with people in them. And then I think I was just really obsessed with people. I always have. I've always loved people. And it was literally when... This is so technical and I'm not a technical photographer.

[00:08:55] I got an 85mm f1.4 lens and I was like, I understand now how people get that beautiful fall-off of focus and how I can just really kind of hone in on people's faces. And I remember just stopping everybody to take close-ups of their face.

[00:09:17] So at that point, it was probably a year or so into my kind of development. I was just very into just honing those skills but kind of not... But really getting very kind of in-depth portraits of people. And I found that the toolkit,

[00:09:36] which was the camera and lens helped me do that. And I think the toolkit that I had developed on my way through kind of narrative and theatre and film just were great tools for me to do that. We'll come back to Gear a bit later on,

[00:09:54] but we are talking here about a digital camera or film camera, your first one? Well, I mean, it was a digital camera, funnily enough. I had to use film cameras before because in the olden days, we all had film cameras.

[00:10:07] So I did it in a very kind of relaxed way, use film cameras, but this was digital. I kind of started to use film periodically because of the whole slowness to it and the whole surprise. But the great thing about digital at that point

[00:10:24] was that I could practice, I could join communities, I could share my work quite easily. You know, my world had got very small, but I started to document my family and their stories and then the people around me. So having that digital camera at that point

[00:10:47] was really useful. And I have to say, I have to say this, it was a Nikon. So that was my tool of choice at that point. I remember I started with Nikon because I saw the pictures of Steve McCurry and I said,

[00:11:07] this is me, this is the camera I need. So yeah. And then you continue because it is the intro. I know this is about gear, but I mean, it's general, isn't it? It's you use what you start with often. I've never exchanged brands.

[00:11:24] I've just, I felt it felt comfortable. I used it and I found it. It helps me to kind of really hone my skills and tell those stories. Yes. And then you became Nikon Ambassador. You are an amazing portrait photographer. You're an amazing lifestyle photographer.

[00:11:44] And we probably will make a podcast of two hours if we talk about this. Yeah, yeah. But in this podcast, Caroline, I want to go a bit deeper and I want to talk about building projects because you're amazing in projects.

[00:12:00] If I have to pick, I will probably pick your being in between project. Captures girls between 10, I think, and 12 years old in that transition period between being a kid and a girl. What inspired you, Caroline, to focus on this age

[00:12:16] and what is the most surprising insight you gained from this? I think that that so being in between was like a long form project. It took me six years, really, that project. And but the starting point was because I remembered being 10, 11 and 12, that age.

[00:12:37] And I had very strong memories of feeling really self-conscious and feeling I had these big existential thoughts in my head. I thought I was going crazy. So big philosophical existential thoughts. And I remember thinking, if I tell anyone, they'll think I'm crazy and they'll lock me up.

[00:12:57] And because at that age, you can deal with those thoughts as an adult because they're just how we think. But as a child, as a 10 year old, when you're thinking about the universe and you're thinking about life and you're thinking about

[00:13:11] but in a much bigger way, it's quite scary. But also I got really self-conscious and I would cover myself in layers. And I remember thinking at that point, I'll never be one of the pretty girls. But I have got personality.

[00:13:30] So I'm going to get through the world of my personality. And I also remember that things that people said to me at that particular age became how I saw myself as I grew up. So I have a story that goes with being in between,

[00:13:45] which was I think I was about 11 and I was in my bedroom and it was a hot day, really hot day. And my dad was doing a barbecue outside and I was wearing my jeans and my layers.

[00:13:59] And I remember thinking, should I put on a pair of shorts? And you see, I was always covered up. And it took I probably spent like an hour and a half thinking, should I put on a pair of shorts because it's hot or not?

[00:14:12] Should I put on a pair of shorts or not? And after like an hour and a half, I thought, well, it's really hot up on a pair of shorts. And they're very green, bright, vibrant green shorts. And I put them on and I kind of walked to the,

[00:14:24] I was at the top of the stairs going down and my dad appeared and he looked at me and he said, your legs look so white and choppy in those shorts. And I was like, like a flippant dad comment. And I thought, oh, OK.

[00:14:43] And I went back to my room and I put my jeans on and my layers and those shorts went away. But the sad thing about it is those shorts never, I never put on a pair of shorts after that because that became for me like a truth.

[00:14:57] It was like, OK, I have got really white, choppy legs. I can't show them. And I remember being, as I got older, friends were going and I was quite little. You know, I wasn't any size at all. And my friends go, what's your issue, Carolyn?

[00:15:13] Well, it's the problem. Why do you think that? And I thought, well, because it's true, you know. And as I got older, I realised how odd, you know, something that was said to me at such a transient pivotal age became how I saw myself.

[00:15:30] And it led me to thinking about how girls of that age and probably boys too, it's only a series about girls because I was a girl. So it was based on it. It was like an auto ethnographic. It was based on my experience.

[00:15:44] I thought, I want to explore this. I noticed also how friends who had children, the girls were like free spirited. They get to about nine and suddenly their kind of spiritedness would stop and they start to look like they were very self-conscious.

[00:16:00] I thought, gosh, this is really interesting. And I decided that I wanted to explore that and take, invite girls to have their portraits taken. I wanted them to wear the clothes that they chose to wear.

[00:16:14] I wanted to make portraits of them as that could be an art gallery. So it was a really strong image I had, but they could almost be old masters. I thought I want to make them important, but I want to make the portraits with them.

[00:16:30] And I also chose to ask them questions about their lives. And that was a starting point. You know, initially it wasn't necessarily going to be a long project. It was just I was using my camera to explore that age and to give those girls a platform.

[00:16:48] And how you start a project like this, Caroline? I mean, you sent out some notices you are looking for girls maybe interested in this or? Yeah, it's quite complicated really because there are lots of ethics involved in this, aren't there?

[00:17:04] You know, it's not you can't just take pictures of young people that you're not connected to. What I did was I wrote a blog post and in this blog post, I shared some images that I was very embarrassed about, with myself being 10, 11 and 12.

[00:17:22] And then I told my story in the blog post about the green shorts. And I also shared images of young because I, you know, I take lots of photographs of young people of kind of girls. I shared photos that I'd already taken. They're not geared towards that project.

[00:17:38] And basically said, I would love the opportunity to give to take portraits if you're aged between 10 to 12 and ask you questions about your life. And I shared that. And obviously when you do that, it's all about getting permission from parents and carers as well.

[00:17:57] So I kind of sent that out. And I also did callouts. I made posters. And initially it was people close at home. And so I remember this girl, you know, little girl, Mabel, 10 year old Mabel. And so she agreed to be in have her portrait made with me.

[00:18:22] So we and this was she was like the blueprint, maybe was the blueprint. All the direction was where the clothes of your choice. And I want you to look straight into the camera because I'm imagining that if this ever is exhibited, you'll be looking at people.

[00:18:41] We won't be looking at you. But then it was talking to her about how she may stand. What was comfortable to her? And I had a great backdrop and her portrait became the blueprint. So I started so obviously I was sharing.

[00:18:56] I had to get permissions to share this work. And that was a starting point, really. You have an idea how many girls you took the pictures of in all these years? Karen, exactly. I took 90 portraits. So 90 portraits over six years.

[00:19:13] I wasn't doing it all the time because it was personal project. So I would fit in and I would do call outs and very actually it's interesting because I had only taken about six portraits and I showed them to a gallery

[00:19:30] just because I had some other work there and they looked at them and said, oh, we'd love to exhibit this. I was like, I think you have only got six. And so they gave me an exhibition, which was really amazing because it was a short.

[00:19:43] I think the pictures quite striking individually. So probably they could see that this could be a good thing. So that kind of I then took about 20 more portraits and had an exhibition and got them printed at like a one size on beautiful paper, Dibon mounted.

[00:20:03] I also actually what something else I did was I always recorded an interview asking the same series of questions from what is your name? How old are you to what do you love? What are you scared of? Really big questions, actually.

[00:20:19] What would you like to be when you're an adult? What are your hopes for the future? Those sorts of question I recorded them and I crafted with the help of a kind of musician, a soundscape with the girls voices weaving in

[00:20:33] and out of ambient noise to go with this particular exhibition. So each portrait has a quote or a narrative behind it. But then in exhibition, there's also the soundscape. But I wanted everything to work independently of each other

[00:20:51] and everything to kind of add to to the final project. So that was the starting book. I was really aware also I wanted it to be diverse. So I wanted it to be a community of girls and that took a very long time.

[00:21:08] It's interesting because it's quite scary when you show work for the first time, particularly because, you know, showing work of these girls could be contentious for people. I wanted them to be powerful. I wanted it to be challenging and I wanted it feel I definitely the girls involved.

[00:21:28] I needed to make sure they understood and were truly central to that work. So, yeah, I also entered the work into competitions. I remember having putting a PDF together and sending it to Huffington Post and then screaming

[00:21:49] because Huffington Post came back to me and went, we'd love to share this work. And I was like, oh, I didn't see it early on. And then BuzzFeed shared it. And then I won the International Photography Exhibition for the Royal Photographic Society and then that work was shared.

[00:22:05] That work was it was in the Sunday Times and it was amazing. I never expected it, really. It was just I was driven to doing this project. And I think these little and big successors really excited me because I felt that those girls were being seen and heard.

[00:22:26] So it wasn't like, hey, I'm a great photographer. It was really I'm so happy those girls are getting their platform. Their faces are being seen. The girls of that age group often marginalised and hidden away because they seem to be awkward.

[00:22:42] You know, it's that age where people go, oh, they're really awkward. Maybe we'll take pictures in the years time. And I thought, no, this is really interesting. So that was within the first year or so of that project. And you still have contact with girls, Caroline?

[00:22:59] Yeah, I do because actually, you know, there's big stories go behind behind the work and it's been exhibited in numerous places and it's grown in size every time. And I've kind of had support when it's been shown. And I'm always

[00:23:18] always share it with the girls who are part of it. So some of the girls who were 10 at the very beginning in 2014 almost finished their kind of finishing degrees now or have jobs. And that's so weird, you know?

[00:23:32] And and there was I'm thinking about things I remember inviting the work was I really want people to see the work, but I was really scared of their attitude towards it. So you have to be quite brave sometimes with projects. You have to be open to failing.

[00:23:48] That's a really important thing. You have to be open to failing. Never expect it's going to be a big success. So I didn't imagine what would happen to it, but I had a visual

[00:24:00] a strong visual kind of thing in my head as to what it would look like. I remember inviting it was so it was taken on my Nikon at the 800. But and with lights, I kind of lit lit those work that work

[00:24:16] so they would look like old masters, you know, it was really and I was learning all the time. So it's kind of a never really lit things before. And I was learning all the time. And then. I remember inviting kind of the business manager of Fujifilm

[00:24:31] to come and see the first exhibition because it was printed on their beautiful paper. Can you come have a look? It's printed on your paper and it looks the prints look amazing. And I think this lovely man, John Cohen, came along.

[00:24:47] And I don't think he necessarily thought he would like it, but he was like blown away to the point that he said, how can we help you? How can we help you with this work? So they then offered to supply paper for me.

[00:25:00] So it was really lovely paper for me. And then they did some PR and and that was kind of the starting point really. And they celebrated with me. And then it was in other exhibitions

[00:25:13] and it was in the Portrait of Britain Portrait of Alice was in the Portrait of Britain. And it got to the point where I was like thinking, I would lose the plot with it after a few years.

[00:25:24] I was thinking, I remember somebody saying, a friend of mine saying, my other friend such and such is saying, is she still doing that bloody project? And you know what it's like as photographers or as sensitive, artistic human beings?

[00:25:42] You can have a hundred positive comments and it's one little negative criticism. I just thought, oh, oh no. People are getting bored with this project, even though it was my project. And I was invited, interesting, I was invited to see,

[00:25:58] to see, to go to this gallery, Impressions Gallery, which is one of the national contemporary galleries in the UK. And Anna McNeil and she invited me to show her the work, not being in between, she wouldn't, we'd like to invite you to talk about your work.

[00:26:15] And I thought that they wanted me to have loads of ideas. So I sat there writing a hundred ideas down, thinking, all right, I'm going to have to have loads of ideas. So I kind of went to them and I did have beautiful prints of being in between,

[00:26:30] but I didn't think they'd be interested. But I just said, OK, I've all these ideas and they stared at me and they were, what do you mean? I said, I'd like to do this. I'd like, we're not interested, Karen, and we're interested in being in between.

[00:26:41] And I went, really? Because the whole negativity of one little comment made me think everybody would be thinking the same. And I remember sharing that with them. They said, do not listen to those kind of comments because what we're

[00:26:56] interested in as a contemporary photography gallery is long form projects because the longer a project is, the more layered it is, the more significant it becomes, it will take as long as it takes. So it kind of felt like I had, I started to get mentors

[00:27:17] and then work was then they then invited me to exhibit the work at their gallery, which was really extraordinary. But prior to that, I was also my dream was to have it as a book. Look, got it here. Beautiful. You see? Yeah, yeah. Look at that.

[00:27:35] It smells nice. Look at that. It is so it is so beautiful, this book, you know, and have a picture of me as a kid. It's got two brilliant essays. This is a total labor of love. And I was talking about Mabel. This is Mabel.

[00:27:52] I don't know whether you can see this. Yeah, there she is with her quote. The book. Can I tell you the story of the book? Yeah, of course. Yeah. OK. I thought, well, you know what I'd really love is to

[00:28:06] have these girls celebrated in a book, a beautiful little book that gives them a longevity and a voice beyond the project, beyond exhibitions. And I went to this book workshop that the RPS were doing. And this is very significant, really.

[00:28:31] I saw that there was a workshop being held by them for photographers who wanted to make books. They had some experts that had a kind of a woman called Zelda Cittal who is photography consultant and is really well known in the UK as an expert

[00:28:46] in photography. She had a gallery. She's printed books. She judges exhibitions. So I got about 20 beautiful prints made up. And I was really excited because I knew I had to be there. And I put the data, I booked, I put the date in my calendar.

[00:29:04] It was a couple of hours from where I lived. And on this Saturday, but you know, I thought it's on the Sunday on the Saturday. I was in my car. My daughter Poppy, who is how old was she? 10 or 11 at the time. Was doing some running training.

[00:29:21] She was my daughter was obsessed with sprinting and running. So she was doing this running sprint training. And I was waiting for her. And then as I was waiting in my car for her, I was also looking at social media.

[00:29:35] And suddenly I saw that I had the wrong date, that the workshop was happening at that time. I felt I was quite devastated actually. I felt a bit sick. And then Poppy came in and I went, Poppy, this has just happened. She went, you've got to go, mum.

[00:29:52] This is like two hours late. You've got to get there. And so I dropped her home. And then I got in my car. I drove for two hours, one and a half hours to get to Manchester from where I live. Centre of Manchester. They had a conservative conference.

[00:30:08] There was no parking. It was awful. It was like this real nightmare. And I kind of had message say, I will be coming and I'm really sorry for being outrageously late. But I need something in me that was telling me I had to be there.

[00:30:23] And eventually found parking. I was almost in tears at this point. I think this is just all a failure. And I kind of walked along, walked to the city hall where this workshop was taking place.

[00:30:34] I walked along this corridor and I think my boots were clacking on this corridor. And then I opened the door and then people turned round and I tried really quietly and discreetly to sit at the back.

[00:30:51] And then I also thought, I've got to try to get my prints on that table. It's like sneaking around. They were doing these talks and I put my prints on the table and then I sat down and then my phone had a sat-nav on it

[00:31:07] and it went, you have arrived at your destination really loudly. And it was really mortifying. And then Zelda Chutl turned and looked at me. She said, yes, I think we've realised that you're here. And you just want the world, the earth to swallow you up.

[00:31:29] So they were busy. She they had run talks and I was like four hours late and then they were doing, they were reviewing people's work. And because I was so late, my work was at the very end and most people were leaving. So I was like, oh no.

[00:31:46] And in my head, my little critic in my head was thinking, she's going to look at this work and she's going to say, I've seen this before. It's hackneyed. It's been done. So this is all myself, my critic, inner critic.

[00:32:02] And then she got to me right at the end and she looked at the work and she went, this is great. This is great, Carolyn. And she'd seen one or two of the images before, luckily. She went, how much of it have you got?

[00:32:19] So I said, well, I've been working on this series for a long time. And and I said, I just would love it to be a book. And so she was so supportive and she became a mentor, a really amazing mentor to have, you know,

[00:32:35] and it was so it was really weird because I couldn't it's almost like I needn't have gone because I was really late, not a good first impression. She actually wrote one of the S the forward to the book and she mentions the fact

[00:32:49] that the first time she met me, I flew in with all my work. Horribly late. And so in the end, this book, she just gave me that belief that it should be a book. She suggested a few publishers, one of whom wasn't interested.

[00:33:04] And then I had contact with Colin Wilkinson, who ran Bluecoat Press at that time and which is social documentary publisher. And I saw him at the, I think it was the photographer's gallery in London. And I had he had to recognise me through something.

[00:33:23] And I said, look, I have this series and I'm not sure you'll be interested, but I would really love your advice if you're not about publishing it. And he said to me, don't tell me what I may or may not be interested in. Just send me the work.

[00:33:39] So I sent him the work in a PDF. And then I also, with this email put, I realised this won't fit in with your social documentary, but please can we meet and talk about it? And he sent an email to Carolyn. I really love this.

[00:33:58] This is a document. This is a document of girls of this time. I'm really interested. I would love to publish it, honestly. I remember being in a cafe getting this email from him again, crying, you know, so I couldn't believe it.

[00:34:14] So all these little steps to making that work. And there's been lots of times where I've had three or four months where the work wasn't being made because I didn't have a chance. And as I as time went on

[00:34:30] and it took a couple of years to get this published, I knew that it needed to be much more diverse. I knew, for example, so initially it was open calls. Everyone and anyone who wanted to be in it could be in it.

[00:34:43] As time went on, I thought it's really important that there is a diverse community of girls from different backgrounds, different socioeconomic backgrounds, different cultural backgrounds. But also one of the things I realised I didn't have was any girl who was limited by physical access was in a wheelchair.

[00:35:04] And I did a kind of call out on to girls who, you know, girls who are in wheelchairs because they can't get to portrait shoots easily. And I hadn't even considered that. I thought it was so important.

[00:35:18] And so I had the last two girls who were in this project. Lottie and Becker were twins. Lottie and Becker and Beck had cerebral palsy and was in a wheelchair and Lottie wasn't in a wheelchair, she was fine.

[00:35:34] And they came and I remember I'm trying to think whether they're at the back. They're probably not at the back of my book, but Lottie and Becker. Lottie said to me, she's like the last girl. And she said to me when I asked what she was afraid of,

[00:35:51] she said, I'm really scared of the path of Covid. So this was this was February 2020. And Becker was very funny and spirited, you know, wanted to be, want to do all sorts of things. So her story is really powerful, but Becker's the last character,

[00:36:09] last girl in it said, I'm really scared of Covid, which is so spooky because then within six weeks we're all locked down in pandemic. And it was really the final portraits told the final story. So the interviews were a really important part of the project

[00:36:29] because they also documented the what was happening in society over six years, because that also influenced what the girls said. An amazing six or seven or eight years. And then you were absolutely. But you know what's really shocking is that I was invited

[00:36:51] to have an exhibition at Impressions Gallery and I was invited to have that book published and then Covid. Okay. I was like, oh no, you know, so the exhibition had to be cancelled and the book wasn't going to be done.

[00:37:07] But the gallery just really wanted the works they waited until kind of the Christmas time. Oh yeah, we installed it. I got it. It was a much larger exhibition. And then I had to make the book virtually. What a nightmare designing the book virtually,

[00:37:27] working virtually to make a book that you really want during the pandemic, printed in the Czech Republic. That was such a challenge. And then the exhibition, which was we had it installed, had the soundscape was looked so beautiful, so proud of him, so proud for these girls.

[00:37:47] And then it was cancelled. And you know when you just think, oh yeah, it wasn't actually it was going to happen. We put it up just for Christmas. And then on January the 1st, we had went into lockdown. I remember thinking this is not going to happen.

[00:38:02] This is just not going to happen. But luckily for me, the gallery decided to extend the run. So it was in the gallery. No one could see it. We had a virtual launch. But they kind of had a film of the work.

[00:38:16] But then with it, you know, three months later, people go and see the work. So I know it's a really long story. I've just told you without a break, haven't I? But it was that. Yeah, I could never have imagined that a personal project would become something.

[00:38:33] That took such a long time, but also then affected all all the other work that I was doing in a positive way. I think it becomes a part of you really in all these years. It really does. And it kind of really defined what I wanted to do.

[00:38:51] I wanted to make work that had meaning, that told stories, that amplify quite those quieter voices that gave people a platform. And I think that's always been what I've been interested in. And the wonderful thing about that for me is that I started to be commissioned

[00:39:10] to do work that was based on being in between. So it's kind of like I've got this artist in residence with this longitudinal health study called Born in Bradford, which is a 14 year health study from children from birth to these children

[00:39:28] now 14 and I've been invited to take portraits of them, of 25 of them from 12 upwards every year until they get 18 or 21. And that's just a gift really for me. It's very different boys and girls and it looks slightly different. But the process is the same.

[00:39:53] You touched a moment before the issue of COVID and then 2020 arrived COVID hit. Everybody was stuck at home. And you got the idea of your true through our lens project. Yeah, through our lens. Talk me a bit about that.

[00:40:12] That was life changing for me in a lot of ways. So there we were. I have three well poppy. Yeah, three teenagers at home. Oscar, my oldest had to be sent back from university. I remember I remember ringing him saying, Oscar, you've got to come home.

[00:40:28] It goes, I'm fine. So how old was Oscar 18? 19. I'm fine. I said, no, you're really not fine. You have to come home. He goes, no, I don't. I'll just say I went no Oscar. You have to come home and your friends parents will be picking them up.

[00:40:44] So I had Oscar at home. I had Sam at home. He was doing his kind of 16 doing his GCSEs. I remember him saying to me, coming home from school saying, we're not going back to school. We can't do exams.

[00:40:59] I wanted to cry, you know, all these pivotal moments. And then Poppy who had a 14th birthday in the first weekend of lockdown and two weeks of it was quite terrifying for a lot of people because we didn't know what we would do, what we were dealing with.

[00:41:15] And there were some terrible things happening. And I remember thinking after two weeks, I felt I'd lost I said, I'd lost all my commissions or my work. It was very sunny in the UK. I remember the weather was beautiful, but there was this weirdness to it all.

[00:41:32] And I was documenting this with my camera, you know, the family story and what was happening. And then I was also feeling like I'd lost everything. And there was the opportunity locally, my city, I live in, invited artists to respond to the pandemic

[00:41:53] to the coronavirus as it was known then. So it wasn't really no, it was like the coronavirus, would you respond? And they had small pots of money. So they turned their summer activities and art grants into pots of money for artists to respond.

[00:42:09] And I thought, I don't want to go around taking pictures of people of adults in masks, people weren't wearing masks, I don't think. But I thought I'm really concerned that I know what young people are going through. And it feels like there's nothing in the visual narrative

[00:42:26] that was coming out that was about the young people's experience. And I tried to think about what I could do. And I thought, maybe I could work with young people. And I was thinking, maybe on Skype or maybe what, you know,

[00:42:40] whatever, I could work with young people to tell us to get to enable them to tell their own story. And they didn't have to take. They didn't have to be interested in photography. You know, they all had the most mad mobile devices.

[00:42:54] And I remember doing a call out, thinking, what can I use? And I found out about Zoom. And you know what, Tom, I hated things like this. I hated video calls. I always refused to be on Skype, but this was like the most liberating experience.

[00:43:09] I didn't know whether it would work. I made a little poster. I did a call out. I got a lot of funding, not massive amount, just a little bit of funding. And I invited young people between the age of 12 and 19 to join me and I would mentor them.

[00:43:26] I would run workshops with them once a week. And I wanted them to share their work with me to tell their story. And that's how it started. I had about 20 young people and I remember I would always say, I want you to do your worst work.

[00:43:39] I don't want you to please me. I want to know what your story is. You might think your story is boring, but I think it's really interesting. And I kind of ran workshops on how to kind of tell a story,

[00:43:53] how to find the light, how to compose an image. Just very basic technical things to give them a starting point. And I gave them a little assignments. You know, so I would give them assignments and then they would send

[00:44:07] their images back to me and the images were so extraordinary and powerful. And then the next session I would share the images and I would get them to talk about each other's images. I'd say, OK, and I'll call their names out.

[00:44:20] So it would be like Tom, what do you think of? What do you think of Anne's image? You know, what do you love about it? I'd never say give a big critique. I'd say, what do you love about it? And they started to use like the terms.

[00:44:34] They go, I love the way she's used the light. I love the story that she's telling. And I then started to I I talk about genres. So I talk them about documentary photography and I'd share work. So each session I would share the work of an artist,

[00:44:49] you know, conceptual photography, fine art photography. And then I started to invite the work suddenly blew up on. I would share the work on Twitter and Instagram had a page. It blew up, it became viral because some of the work was so extraordinary.

[00:45:07] And within like five weeks, they were invited to be on BBC News. I was being contacted by people from all over the world because of the power of their work. And I just felt like they these young people

[00:45:22] and they would come every week and I'd be I'd be working on it 10 hours a day. It was really time consuming, but it gave me such a sense of joy myself. And I think for them because they had nothing else to do. I became like their fairy godmother.

[00:45:37] So so they were always always motivated. And then I ran, you know, I started to build the project up. It ran for another six weeks. It started to be exhibited outside. It was people magazines, newspapers on like Huffington Post.

[00:45:55] They all became interested in it and they were on this amazing BBC News. And I started I worked with refugees, young refugees who just come into the country. So just grew and grew and grew and I found it such a powerful thing for me.

[00:46:11] I you know, I got as much out of it as they got out of it. And I did little satellites. I think year after I was invited to work with six to 12 year olds. I remember thinking this will be interesting in the second lockdown.

[00:46:25] And I thought, OK, I just treat people the same. It doesn't matter how old they are. I will communicate. I'm not going to talk down to a six year old. I will teach them the genres and the words and they will.

[00:46:37] Yeah, I'd make it a little bit more interactive. So I'd send them off and like, OK, I want you to take a picture now. Something that you love. And so I'd make it interactive and their work was amazing. And then it just taught me a lot really.

[00:46:51] And I think I still use through our lens as a model. You know, I have a lovely website with her work on it. I've worked with with kind of adults, women, asylum seekers. So it's something that continues for me.

[00:47:06] And it's all about the telling of the story and the kind of giving people the platform really to tell their own story. Because I think, you know, when you look at things like photo journalism, which I think is great, but at the same time, often somebody comes in,

[00:47:24] takes a picture of people that are under duress or having a really a really challenging time or in war zones. And I was thinking how powerful it would be for those people to tell their own story.

[00:47:37] So it's kind of sparked a lot of things up in my head. And this project is concentrated in the UK, Caroline, I suppose. You ever got questions of going worldwide to say something with a project like this? Well, I really wanted it to.

[00:47:53] And at one point during the pandemic, it was easier because people's focus was restricted and I was invited. You know, there was a group in Brazil who contacted me to say, how are you doing this? I would like you to work with our young people.

[00:48:09] There's a group in New Zealand, Christchurch, who's young people they were working with had been in an earthquake, they'd been a terrorist attack. And then there'd been the pandemic and their person was working with them wanted me to work.

[00:48:23] And if I would always invite my group with the experts, I'd say, what do you think about working with a group from New Zealand? They're going, yeah. But then the reality of like 12 hours time difference made it really tricky.

[00:48:36] So I think at the earlier stages, I really had dreams of being able to make it international. So the potential is there, really. It was also that their work, after said the young people's work was exhibited again, Impressions Gallery, amazing, invested in those young people too.

[00:48:53] And they exhibited the work in a really amazing, powerful exhibition. People come in and they would cry because the work of the young people was so powerful. Resonated with everyone. It wasn't like kids taking photos. It was a document of that time in a very creative way.

[00:49:14] And then the work has been of, through our lens has been acquired by museums and galleries as as a kind of definitive collection, pandemic collection of work. So it's extraordinary, like an idea that may fail. You know, it's that thing of you if you feel strongly enough

[00:49:34] and you put enough energy and time into it. I think you made lots of things work. I think I was also remembering the other day, just this, because you told that sometimes people in this long time project,

[00:49:48] if we talk about five, six, seven, eight years, it will take you. They maybe never started because sometimes people they think they will need an end for it while it's all about the journey you told and it's very true.

[00:50:05] You think, Caroline, that if it takes you five, six, seven, eight years and you go through your journey, it's OK to change your own vision of your own project? I think it is. I think it's hard sometimes.

[00:50:17] So I think I kept very much so with them being in between. I very much kept a very straight line through it because in my head, I thought if I exhibit this work, I would like it to be cohesive over the years.

[00:50:34] So even if I was taking the portraits in different spaces, but I would encourage people to. So it worked with that project. If I was doing it now, I might choose to do it totally differently. But that the time I chose to do it that way,

[00:50:51] I think you can change and you can add multi layers to projects and you can add little satellites to projects so that there can be different outcomes. You know, don't have to be long form. They don't have to end in an exhibition.

[00:51:05] I think maybe what stops people often before they even start is that they're imagining a success. And if they don't get that success and they stop doing it where I was not imagining the success it got, I would have very strong vision for it.

[00:51:22] But it was incremental, the development of it. And I think if I had... So people have said to me, how do you do that? How do you get that? How do you... And I think it doesn't work like that.

[00:51:34] You just have to not imagine it's going to be a big... Not think you're going to win a competition. Not think you're going to have an exhibition before the very start of a project. But just start doing it. You just do it.

[00:51:47] And sometimes you do it and it doesn't work. So you do it in a different way. And it's all a learning curve, I think. And why, Carol, and this long-time project? Because we all know that they are personal projects. They make very little money.

[00:52:03] What drives you to do them? I think... So it's not just long-term projects for me. It's shorter projects. They give me a joy because it's me exploring the world with my camera and telling stories of things that I am interested in. That I feel passionate about.

[00:52:22] But also because when I was doing a lot of kind of lifestyle work, I just didn't... I was thinking, why am I doing this? Why am I running around after this family? Why am I doing this? Because this isn't what I want to do. So they started...

[00:52:38] So doing the personal work was doing what I wanted to do. And it meant that doing more commercial work was more palatable for me. I think maybe it's the artist in me. You know, maybe... So I have a lot of brilliant friends like Barry Lewis, who's brilliant, who's...

[00:52:55] He's a photographer, Daniel Meadows. He's a photographer. They were... They have been so supportive of me in my work. And I think I do that. I do the work that I do, the personal work because it brings me joy. It has meaning to me.

[00:53:14] And I feel I can't do anything if it doesn't have meaning. And that's just my Achilles heel because other people are just very happy to be great photographers and do work that big commercial campaigns. But they terrify me. That kind of work terrifies me.

[00:53:30] We're doing my intimate personal work. It doesn't terrify me. It just feels like my journey of discovery. Does that make sense to you? That makes perfectly sense, yes, of course. And you know, you don't... Well, you don't make money out of it. But I have...

[00:53:53] So this won't be for everyone. The things have come from it that I never expected to come, you know? And whether it's because it then put me on a platform and made people aware of my work and then you start to get invited to do other things

[00:54:09] because of that. And it's kind of having rigor as well in your work. And having substance and layers. And it takes... It does take a lot of energy. And it takes... It's not necessarily self-belief but you have to believe in your project, I think,

[00:54:28] if it's gonna last a long time. And maybe just as we started this podcast interview with me showing the book and you're talking about the picture, maybe one of your 90 girls will grow up and say, oh, I want to book on my photographer

[00:54:43] because Caroline, she showed me the way and I really like what she does. Well, I think so, you know? So people say to me about... Because there's two stories here. People say to me about being in between. Oh, I've got a great idea.

[00:54:57] Why don't you revisit the girls? I'm like, I know. Because it's about that time and that's what's important. And because I took it over six years, it will be... And the girls from all over the country will be really tricky.

[00:55:09] But if one of the girls becomes a photographer and then decides to do... Revisit this work, I'll be really happy. And one of them, Abby, so there's a girl, she became quite well known in the series, Abby. She's 10 in the series.

[00:55:25] She's wearing a cloak and she has a sword. And I remember she... Whilst the work was being exhibited in the first year and I invited her to come and I invited young girls to come and she came along and I remember thinking, oh no, she's all in black.

[00:55:41] How's this gonna work? And she was this little girl with a sword and a cloak and then she stood in front of my lights and she had such... She was like regal. She became so important. And then when I interviewed her about what she wanted to do,

[00:55:57] she went, when I grow up, I want to be an architect. And then I want to move to Romania and rescue wolves. That was her quote. And it became viral and she was going through a difficult time and was doubting whether she should be able to wear

[00:56:12] the clothes that she wanted to. And then this work, her portrait in particular went everywhere and people were going, I want to be like Abby when I grow up. And that changed her trajectory. And interestingly, Abby started to do gig photography, music photography. So maybe Abby,

[00:56:29] Abby must be about 19 or 20 now. Maybe Abby will be that photographer. And with through our lens, those young people are never trained to be photographers. But four or five of them are doing like film degrees and photography degrees. She hadn't considered doing that. That's like amazing, isn't it?

[00:56:49] So yeah, that makes me happy. I mean, I think things like this, they make it all already worthwhile, Caroline. I think so. You can have it. Definitely. Let's move a bit on to some gear questions, Caroline. Yeah, okay. Let's move our head now because you're a Nikon ambassador.

[00:57:09] What camera lenses you use nowadays? I use Z9. I use the Z8. I love the Z50 1.2. I have the 24 to 70. I feel spoiled actually. And I also have the 85 1.2. And that's all because of Nikon, really. They actually discovered me through being in between.

[00:57:37] I didn't go out to say to Nikon, even though I'd always use them. How do you become an ambassador? I always get emails saying, how do you become an ambassador? And I'm like, it doesn't work like that. It really doesn't work like that.

[00:57:49] They have billions of people wanting... So I was just fortunate to be invited by them to talk about my work and then share my work and then little opportunities as a friend of Nikon, really, and just develop from there. And then one day they said,

[00:58:03] we would love you to be an ambassador. And I was like, again, I thought I was going to get told off, Tom. I thought they had seen me do this talk. I'd done various talks with them.

[00:58:13] And I thought, oh no, I'm a bit left field in my talk. I'm not typical for Nikon. And then the kind of Julian who's marketing director, so Karen, I need to talk to you. And when I hear the word, I need to talk to you.

[00:58:28] I think I'm going to get told off. So we were on Zoom and he asked, how are you? And I said, oh, I'm really good. Thank you. How are you? It goes, oh, great. So we've been talking about you.

[00:58:40] And I remember thinking, oh, what have I done wrong? And we said, we really love your work. We really love your talks. They're really inspiring. And we just wondered if you'd like to be an ambassador. I remember going, going, oh, I can't believe it.

[00:58:55] And then because of that, I am so happy because I believe that I can use the equipment that I wouldn't have been able to use before. And it helps me tell those stories and have a platform for them. So, yeah, so that's what I use.

[00:59:17] And you think being on a Nikon ambassador also or put a bit of doors here and there in personal work, maybe? Or I don't know. I think it just means I can talk about my work to more people. So, and also I, the Nikon family are lovely.

[00:59:35] The other photographers are great and we get invited to do certain things. You know, I think on the way I've had other opportunities. So I do other work. I do some photo journalism, some portraits for Bloomberg I've done. I do commissioned work.

[00:59:53] I just think it's lovely to have Nikon support me and to celebrate what I do among their amazing wildlife photographers. They're amazing kind of, yeah, they have incredible photographers there. I think I'm left field for them. So... Karin, how important are technical aspects of photography to you?

[01:00:17] I think they are... I do know my camera, but I don't think the technical aspects are that important. So when I first started, I didn't know how to use my camera at all, but I knew how to see a picture. I knew how to find the light.

[01:00:35] I became successful early on in my photography journey. I ended up on this kind of weird photography show with five other photographers where they were... This was only a year in. I couldn't even use my camera properly.

[01:00:48] It was a bit mortifying and they were all like proper photographers when I was just me with my camera. But they picked, you know, I was on that. And I think after that experience, and it was on television three episodes with some very important,

[01:01:03] you know, Martin Parr, Brett Rogers, Alex Prowley, important people who were like the judges. It was quite terrifying. And I just thought, right. I'm gonna make sure I know how to use my camera inside out. So I just kind of learned as I went on.

[01:01:21] So obviously I understand how to use the camera. I can mental people, I can train people. But the main thing is that you are not scared of telling the story, that you're not fixated by the technical aspects, because sometimes the mistakes of what makes the photograph

[01:01:40] helps to know your camera. But it's the mistakes that I think sometimes create something serendipitously brilliant. What advice would you give to an aspiring photographer if you would say the ratio between focusing on gear and focusing on the greater process? I'd say it's good to know your gear,

[01:02:04] but that's not the important thing at all. The important thing is that you have passion to tell your story. And the important thing is to be open to making mistakes because if you're trying to create that perfect shot every time, you'll be super careful.

[01:02:20] You won't be open to failing, which means you'll never be creating the most brilliant work. You have to be open to doing your worst work. So make mistakes and learn. And don't be scared or rather, you know, actually I say don't be scared. I'm scared all the time.

[01:02:40] It's like I get these commissions and I have that real fear that I can't take a photograph. And I then think, no, no, don't be silly. Just believe you can do it. So I would say I've always jumped into things that do terrify me a little bit,

[01:02:55] that feel a little bit bigger than me and then you have to kind of grow into them and believe you can do it. So I'd say do things that are a bit scary for yourself and be passionate about it, if you're gonna, particularly if you're gonna be

[01:03:14] a portrait photographer. But also you are not the most important person. The most important person or is the subject, is the person you're photographing. Create a space for them. So my thing is about, I guess, co-producing that photograph with the person, making them feel at ease

[01:03:36] and then being aware that you may not take the best photo, but you just keep on going. Karen, I think you started with film cameras. Well, you used film cameras before. You still use them nowadays? I do. Yeah, yeah, I do. I'm really excited.

[01:03:57] For the past year, I've been using large format, doing a project on large format. And it's wonderful because what it does is it slows me down. I love learning things, you know? And I think with large format, I had to learn how to use a large format camera,

[01:04:13] how to load dark, how to load film holders, have then also learned how to process the film, which gives me great pleasure. And the process actually, before I even processed negatives, I really love the slow process of large format. And the fact is when I'm taking a portrait

[01:04:37] of somebody with a large format camera, they feel part of it. You know, it's an event, it's an occasion. And they feel part of it because it's quite slow. It's a very different feeling. And I think it informs my digital work.

[01:04:51] So I've always gone back to film work when I wanna slow down, when I wanna, I love film work because it's physical in a way that digital isn't, but I like to feel that my digital work has a physicality to it. So yeah, I'm learning still.

[01:05:06] And everything kind of feeds each other. And which camera you're using for large format, Karen? It's Vista DX45. So, and I was too scared, I got it a while back, but I was too scared to open it up. I don't know, it was like,

[01:05:23] I just hate to friends, how do I open my camera up, I'm scared of breaking it? And again, it's silly just to open it by, you know. And then how do I load film? And how do I take a picture? And it's just incremental. I think I've always,

[01:05:36] I just feel so happy that I can take pictures with a large format. Most of my work is on digital because all my commission works on digital. And what I do, what I am doing with the large format is I'm also, so I take the large format camera

[01:05:51] and I'm also doing a digital photograph as well. And I've done a few posts on my Instagram. So I'm using my Nikon as well. And I'm sharing these posts where I'm saying, which one is film and which one is digital? People cannot tell. So interesting.

[01:06:09] In large format cameras with a bit of luck, we might have Clyde Butcher in September on the podcast. Oh, great! So that would be an amazing episode to talk about large format. How exciting. Caroline, in your professional career, there was a moment

[01:06:28] that you had to say no to certain jobs to get more specialized on the two things you prefer doing? Yeah, you know, it's funny. There are certain times, so I think back to there's a few pivotal moments for me.

[01:06:44] I was doing, so after being in this television series, I was getting commissioned to do all this kind of work that I never really wanted to be commissioned to do. I really liked doing it. I put my heart and soul into it.

[01:06:55] So all those lovely clients that I had. I still wanted the work to be brilliant, but it wasn't the work that made my heart beat faster. And I started to lose the joy of taking photo, which I think can happen when you become more pro...

[01:07:08] You kind of get professional commissions. And I remember Poppy was about seven and I took a... I was about to run off to do a kind of shoot somewhere. And then Poppy was sitting there with her book and the light was on her and it looked amazing.

[01:07:24] And I had my camera there and I said, I thought I've got to take a picture. And I went Poppy and she looked at me and I took this picture and then I ran off to do my shoot. And I remember with this picture thinking,

[01:07:35] okay, I'm going to send this picture out to the universe. And if something comes back, then I know that I should be a photographer. And then if nothing comes back, then I don't think I want to do it anymore because I'm losing any sense of purpose with it.

[01:07:49] Sent this portrait of her to this competition for professional photographer and it won Lifestyle Award of the Year. And again, I cried because I couldn't believe it. And then I thought, I'm supposed to be a photographer. And then this was before like the big large girl,

[01:08:06] I think started doing being in between a few years after that. And then so yeah, I was at a point where I didn't have any joy and then I started to do that. And then I think other points were, I wanted to tell stories that had meaning.

[01:08:22] I wanted to do things that had meaning. So I would do commissions. I remember doing a commission for a care home with people living in dementia. And whilst I was there, they said, can you take portraits of the people here? And I said, course.

[01:08:38] So I'd been documenting some workshops they've been doing and then they sent me to this room in a care home and it was awful. It was this kind of painted beige. It was bright. There was no character. And I thought, I can't make a really powerful portrait

[01:08:56] of this person. So I talked to the carer and said, can we find a black cloth to fit over this wardrobe? And there was this big bright light coming through. So I closed the curtains. So it was just that bit of light coming through.

[01:09:08] And I put a diffuser there. So I made that into something. And I wanted to give those people, they were portraits of people living in dementia and family members. And I wanted them to have a kind of dignity. And so I was very quietly took portraits of them

[01:09:26] until 15 minutes. And that was really amazing to learn that people who were really quite unwell and were living dementia, recognized having their photograph taken. So it became, it was comfortable for people. So then it was like, how do I create work?

[01:09:44] How do I get commissioned to do work that I want to do? And I think in a lot of ways, with COVID, with through our lens, I think I made the decision at that point, 2020, that I was not going to do certain pieces of work.

[01:10:01] I'd already stopped doing lots of lifestyle work, but I wanted to make work that had meaning. And then I just started to get that work, commissioned work that had meaning or work that interested me, you know, might be photogeneralism job or I've just done a lovely commercial commission

[01:10:21] working, creating portraits with older people who have a live-in carer about why home is important to them. So yeah, I certainly, I think from maybe five years ago started to navigate my path to just doing things that I had that had meaning for me.

[01:10:44] And never stop, Karlyn, because you're amazing at your work and I love hearing you talking. Thank you, that's really lovely, thank you, because we all doubt ourselves, don't we? That's so... So I really appreciate that and I just say to people, just jump in and make work.

[01:11:05] People think for years about a project they may do, but just start the project and be sensitive to who you're working with but be brave as well. Between workshops and mentoring, Karlyn, what's the most common challenge that people face that they ask you?

[01:11:26] I think people often want success and I think being a photographer isn't about wanting success, so they'll want to achieve... They'll want to win a competition and they'll enter competitions and be very upset when they don't get placed and I think it's an attitude

[01:11:46] and really for me, often I try to say to people, don't have expectations, you know, but just do... So if you're going to enter a competition, realise that there are like 10,000 other people entering that it's subjective but actually use as an opportunity to curate your work,

[01:12:03] to be able to select your best work, to get it in front of people and it, you know, most likely won't get selected but don't have the expectations and then the disappointment when it doesn't get selected. I think with projects,

[01:12:19] so the challenge for people is that they want the whole thing before they even start and I think they need to start at the beginning. Start at the very beginning without an expectation but with an interest and a passion and don't stop yourself because you feel you failed

[01:12:39] at the first hurdle. If you really want to tell that story, then start working on it. You talk about success. How do you find successes as being an artist? It's difficult, isn't it? Because I wouldn't say I'm a successful business.

[01:13:00] A lot of photographers are like business people, aren't they? I'm like Robbyshop business. So in that respect, no, I'm a failure. I'm not a wealthy artist. I'm not a wealthy photographer but I think for me success is when everything aligns so that your work,

[01:13:20] that you start to tell the stories and that the work then gets a platform and that people recognise that work and that for me is success and that the work gets seen and appreciated and people get their platform and their stories told.

[01:13:38] And what's going to be your next new challenge, Caroline? So there's lots of challenges ahead. You know, I have projects brewing. I apply for funding which you don't always get. I think the next challenge is I think just to accept that I can take a good photograph

[01:14:02] and not to stop myself or feel or have a sleep's night because I'm worried about something but maybe that's never going to happen. So there's lots of... I did a lovely project last year called Hardie & Free. It was a commission, women in landscape and their stories

[01:14:19] and it was the most freeing commission for the Bronte Parsonage Museum. And I remember thinking it was based on this quote by Emily Bronte called Hardie & Free. I think I've got it written down. I wish I were a girl again, half savage and hardy and free

[01:14:38] and that's what the whole series was based on. And I thought, you know, I'm going to be hardy and free and I'm not going to plan these shoots. I'm just going to invite these women. They have to have stories to take me on an adventure

[01:14:52] to a different location to tell me their story and I'm just going to respond creatively. I'm not going to plan the shoot and that was the most liberating piece of work. I just had to trust that I could make a picture and that I didn't have to plan.

[01:15:08] I just had to be open to going with them on various adventures to creating the work whilst I was there in response to what they were saying. And that was hugely... That was like a pivotal moment for me and I try to bring that into my work now.

[01:15:24] I think, right, I've got this commission. I'm just going to respond. I'm not going to pull out... I mean, I do plan. I make sure my equipment is right. I make sure my batteries are charged but I try not to overplan what I may do now.

[01:15:37] I try to just respond and trust that I have the skills to tell those stories. You have them, Caroline. Don't doubt, but maybe it's better you doubt because maybe then you bring out even stronger work next time. Yeah, exactly. Caroline, I think we have to stop it here

[01:15:55] because we will talk for two hours more and I will have to cut the podcast in three parts if we go on like this. But I think I would love to invite you another time and we talk about your lifestyle and portrait photography and we keep in touch

[01:16:10] because, you know, I'm trying to get my own project done and I will need some little bit of mentoring to tell me give me your worst shots and then we can work from there. Yeah, I would love to kind of mentor you

[01:16:22] and I'd love to talk to you again at some point too and thank you so much. It's been a real joy talking with you today. It's been amazing getting to know you a bit better and now seeing the person behind your pictures, it's amazing. Thank you, Tom.

[01:16:40] Thank you. Caroline, have a good night still. We'll be in touch. Thank you so much. Thank you. Speak to you soon. I speak to you soon. Bye. Bye. And there we go. I think that wraps up nicely another episode of the Camera Cafe Show.

[01:16:56] I hope you found our conversation with Caroline as inspiring and insightful as we all did here in the studio. From a reneky approach to capturing authentic portraits to available tips for balancing personal and professional work, I think there is so much to take away

[01:17:10] and apply to your own next photography project. Don't forget to check out Caroline's work. We've got all those links in our show notes under and follow her for more incredible photography. And of course if you enjoyed this episode then also follow us. Leave review any way you listen

[01:17:28] and share it with your fellow photography friends. I leave you today with this quote from the portrait photographer Peter Adams who said Photography is not about camera, gadgets or gizmos. Photography is about photographers. A camera didn't make a great picture anymore than a typewriter wrote a great novel.

[01:17:48] Join us next time for more conversations that aim to move your own photography until then keep clicking stay inspired folks and remember every picture has a story to tell. This is Tom Jacobs signing off for today I'll see you next time. Adios.